rimrocked Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) What are your preferred glacier techniques for a team of 2? Kiwi coil? Lots of butterflies? How many pickets? Also, considerations between a twin 30m or single 60m rope? Thinking specifically about Blue Glacier. If using a twin 30m, would it be unreasonably short doubled over for the summit block? Seems like it would be much more pleasant along the Hoh. Many thanks! Edited June 22, 2015 by rimrocked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1125663/Searchpage/1/Main/96413/Words/rope%2Blength%2Bglacier/Search/true/Re_Ideal_rope_length#Post1125663 was a discussion about that last year. seems to come up every year or so. This could be a worthwhile sticky topic. (admins) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 everyone has their preferences but I take the worst case scenerio when deciding on glacier travel gear. That is your partner is hangin into the crevasse and you need to rappel in to give medical help or just make the person upright if they are unconscious and upside down. Others don't plan for that plan for the most common scenerio which is a simple punch-in or a non-event in the first place. You have to decide which one you want to gear up for and then we can talk about what the preffered setup is. Mine is to use a half rope 50m with enough rope in coils (not kiwi coils) to be able to rap into the partner. 3 butterfly knots in between to assist with catching the force. (another good reason to have extra coils is due to those knots when trying to do a 3 to 1 pulley). Each person has enough gear to make a snow anchor. (1 picket and the axe buried) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rimrocked Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 Thank you for the posts and link. Reading ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBlue Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 OK, so about the butterflies-- I understand they can assist with slowing the rope down as it drags over the lip of the crevasse, but then wouldn't those knots prevent you from prusiking up the rope, and also make a z-pulley impossible? I suppose then if you used butterfly knots you would have to have a second rope, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine et Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) Regarding prussiking back up - you could bump your upper prussik above the knot, and then once the knot is unweighted you could untie the butterfly and continue to ascend. It is a bit of a pain, but if the knots aren't there, you and your buddy might both be at the bottom wondering what to do. You can make similar accommodations to pass knots while doing a pulley system. There might be a simplier way, but rigging the ratchet prussik via a pair of load releasing hitches that you use to leapfrog over oncoming knots.... you'd also have to tie/untie the mech advantage prussik as well... don't fall in. Edited June 24, 2015 by alpine et Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 OK, so about the butterflies-- I understand they can assist with slowing the rope down as it drags over the lip of the crevasse, but then wouldn't those knots prevent you from prusiking up the rope, and also make a z-pulley impossible? I suppose then if you used butterfly knots you would have to have a second rope, right? The butterfly knot actually jams in the grove created by the rope sawing into the crevasse list. Realistically, you will need to carry enough rope in the rescue coils to throw down an anchored, padded rope to the climber in the crevasse or carry a second rope. This will allow you to either perform a C x Z hauling system or to allow the climber to Prusik the rope. In one situation in the Ruth Gorge, I was carrying the second rope when my partner went into a crevasse. His weight never came onto me as the butterfly knot jammed into the lip. I set up the second rope for the rescue and the original rope was so stuck that we had to cut it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) OK, so about the butterflies-- I understand they can assist with slowing the rope down as it drags over the lip of the crevasse, but then wouldn't those knots prevent you from prusiking up the rope, and also make a z-pulley impossible? I suppose then if you used butterfly knots you would have to have a second rope, right? you are right about the knots being a pain that is why I "(another good reason to have extra coils is due to those knots when trying to do a 3 to 1 pulley)" or another line to prussik out on. it comes down to what you are more afraid of: chance of the falling climber dragging in the surface climber into the crevasse or a difficult time with the rescue. being the sole person to catch the fall is more worrisome for me. As a result I put in knots. As a result of the knots, I need enough coils around the shoulder to reach the other person. (and them some) As a result I need a 50 or 60 m rope and can't get away with a 30m rope. but even with a 3 person team it is a good idea to have enough rope to reach the fallen climber. Chances are that the snow is really soft or else someone probably would not have fallen into a crevasse if the snow is firm. So the rope would have cut through lots of snow. Trying to excavate the rope from that much snow will be time consuming and involve dropping lots of snow onto the victim. And the risk of cutting the rope while getting all the snow away from the rope. (think using the adze) The person in the hole will appreciate a fresh rope dropped down a well excavated hole off to the side. Edited June 25, 2015 by genepires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine et Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) I set up the second rope for the rescue and the original rope was so stuck that we had to cut it. ..ha! hadn't thought about how wedged that knot would get in there. Difference between textbook/backyard practice and reality is stark! Edited June 25, 2015 by alpine et Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I set up the second rope for the rescue and the original rope was so stuck that we had to cut it. ..ha! hadn't thought about how wedged that knot would get in there. Difference between textbook/backyard practice and reality is stark! The only anchors that would work were picketed skis, not sure that one is taught in FOTH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidviscous Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Thinking specifically about Blue Glacier. If using a twin 30m, would it be unreasonably short doubled over for the summit block? A 15m rappel (with a 30m rope) was just barely enough to make it past the steeper bit on the west side of the summit block of Olympus so in theory you could also climb it with a doubled 30m rope. The picture labeled "alternate option" on this link Summit Post- Mount Olympus is the extent of the difficulties on the West face. The East face is less steep but longer and it appeared to be more loose. A guy from Portland died when he fell off the East Face a few days before we climbed in 2013. The Ranger said he pulled something loose off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 FWIW the summit block is short. A single 60m got us up and down with rope to spare, so your twin 30s should be fine. Glacier travel rules remind me of the rules of white water boating: #1: stay in the boat. #2: stay in the boat. #3: stay in the boat. #4: if you fall out get back in the boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Beckerich Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Which reminds me of Captain Willard's rule for boating: "Never get out of the boat, unless you're going all the way." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rimrocked Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 tl;dr Would you do Olympus in early August with one partner and a 30m rope plus tagline? Thank you all for the great discussion. Regarding the rap I plan to take a tag line if we go with the single 30m twin (doubled for summit lead. And we realize that this means several short pitches.). To refocus, my goal with the single 30m twin is to save weight while on the Ho. If the consensus is that 30m with butterflies would necessitate a second rope for rescue operations, it seems that a single 60m with butterflies between and coils at each partner would be better. We're looking at first or second week of August to be specific. How should the glacier conditions at that time affect our decisions? Many thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 disclaimer: I have been to nearly every range in WA, except the olympics. I would think that the glacier would be pretty well open by the time you get there mainly due to our wierd snowpack this year. maybe I am wrong. If they are all open, then a shorter rope would suffice as it is for the very unlikely chance of falling in. (assuming you are bringing and proficient with crampons) If you are going to bring a 30m rope and a tagline, then you should really evaluate the weight difference between that setup and a standard 50m twin. from a pure safety / rescue point of view, a 50m double is the better option for a rope team of two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rimrocked Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 Setup in my case is One 30m twin+tagline=4 pounds vs One 60m single=7.5 pounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diepj Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I don't have a ton to add to the discussion. When I'm with 2 I always have 60m of rope to have a prayer to pulling off a rescue. Depending on what else is involved it might be a heavier single 60m but I have a pair of 8.0 30m ropes that I join together and then carry coils on each end. This gets you a knot in the middle to start with and you can add extra butterflies if needed. I think this system is pretty nice as you can get a 30m rap and also split the weight between the partners. I can see where you might be trying to work with what you've already got, but the skinny 30s are pretty cheap if you think you'll be running into this situation regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave schultz Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Would you do Olympus in early August with one partner and a 30m rope plus tagline? I did it last August with a 30m 8mm and a 35m tag line. We led the 5th class option in one pitch with the one 30m 8mm rope. It's only 5.4 or 5.5 and the 30m made it to the summit block for the belay. We rapped with the tag line. It worked slicker than snot. We roped up for the climb up with approx 10m or spacing (1/3) with one third of the rope coiled over each of us. We never felt remotely in danger. We did not rope up for the descent. We did it car-to-car running (what we could), and the weight savings was entirely worth it. We did not bring rock shoes. We posted a TR for our trip last year. It was totally worth it. Gene - you should make it out there this year, it's a very cool route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rimrocked Posted July 3, 2015 Author Share Posted July 3, 2015 When I'm with 2 I always have 60m of rope to have a prayer to pulling off a rescue. Depending on what else is involved it might be a heavier single 60m but I have a pair of 8.0 30m ropes that I join together and then carry coils on each end. This gets you a knot in the middle to start with and you can add extra butterflies if needed. Thanks! This is helpful. Would you do Olympus in early August with one partner and a 30m rope plus tagline? I did it last August with a 30m 8mm and a 35m tag line. We posted a TR for our trip last year. It was totally worth it. Sounds awesome. I didn't see the TR on your profile ..... on another site? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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