tvashtarkatena Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Nope. That's not even close to what I've been saying, but thanks for reading. What I've been saying is what I've been saying - and nothing more. Reread and provide quotes to support your thesis if you're of a mind. Regarding white guilt - sorry - my peeps were having their own issues on the Emerald Isle when the shit was going down here. As for me - my conscience is just fine, thanks. My beliefs with regards to policies involving race are complex, but let's face it, nobody here is really interested in that wonkishness, eh? In any case, there are two thread bare rhetorical ploys, common as dirt, in the shitter where they belong. Just want to make the joint a little less violent and deadly is all. Too much violence on the part of the police is definitely part of that problem, even in our own libral town of Seattle, where the SPD is currently operating under a consent decree due to a documented history of excessive use of force and racially motivated violence. That is, if you can believe security videos of SPD kicking the shit out of some guy while calling him a fucking spic are to be believed. Apparently, the DOJ found them - and copious other evidence, credible enough to launch an extensive investigation followed by a damning report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 as an aside, i've never understood the pejorative use of the term "white guilt" - like tvashie, my own ancestors were largely getting the shit kicked out of them in ireland and poland and other euro-joints in the 19th century, so my own culpability is not really the point. isn't a human being who's done something hideously wrong expected to feel guilt and shame? don't we consider them a monster if they don't and exile them if possible? why do the rules that apply to an individual not apply to society as a whole then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWC01 Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Nope. That's not even close to what I've been saying, but thanks for reading. What I've been saying is what I've been saying - and nothing more. It seems that many police ARE out to get black people. And I guess the cops really ARE out to get black people... The comfy white upper class remain blissfully ignorant... According to you, black people are victims of the police. When they burn down their own cities it is not their fault. However, whites are genetically privileged and don't know the plight of blacks and poverty. It's what you've been saying... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 As I've stated, the 3x discrimination at every stage of the criminal justice system - from likelihood of arrest to longer sentences, speaks for itself. Take marijuana. Blacks are 3 times more likely to be arrested and convicted - despite no difference in usage of the drug from whites. Black men are 21 times more likely to be shot by police than white men. Hence, my assertions - all of which are backed by copious, publicly available data. Any salient comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 So what's the solution? Well, it's a complex problem - massive disparity of economic and educational opportunity plays a huge role. But let's just focus on the 'easy' part - a racially biased criminal justice system. Some ideas: 1) End a 42 year long, failed drug war. Fewer arrests overall - less discrimination over all. This would also remove the number one threat to civil liberties. 2) Use newly available Big Data to focus on problem individuals rather than communities or races. Good article today in the NYT on New Yorks AG, Cyrus Vance Jr, who is trying to do just that with some remarkable success. For example: violent repeat offenders, there are about 80 in that city who cause the most trouble. By identifying those individuals and making their histories readily available to stakeholders in the criminal justice system - from police to judges - better decisions can be made as to how to protect society from them. 3) Increased DOJ scrutiny of large municipal police departments with histories of excessive use of force and racially biased policing. 4) Identifying problems jurisdictions so that they can reform themselves. Want to know the most discriminatory municipality in the US? Milwaukee, WI. Nobody wants that honor - Milwaukee included. The court system took a day off to access the problem and come up with solutions - which they are now currently implementing. Anyone disagree with any of these ideas? If so, why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slab_master Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Let's assume your stats below are accurate and defensible. As I've stated, the 3x discrimination at every stage of the criminal justice system - from likelihood of arrest to longer sentences, speaks for itself. Do you think "likelihood of arrest" itself is indicative of discrimination? Could an increase in likelihood of arrest simply be indicative of a higher rate of engagement in illegal activity? Take marijuana. Blacks are 3 times more likely to be arrested and convicted - despite no difference in usage of the drug from whites. What do you think leads to this statistic? Black men are 21 times more likely to be shot by police than white men. Same question as above. Hence, my assertions - all of which are backed by copious, publicly available data. Any salient comments? Your assertion being that cops are out to get black folk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 (edited) Oh, and regarding 'white guilt' - that's just another shitty little rhetorical ploy by those unwilling to be part of the solution against those who are. It's not guilt. It's disgust at systemic injustice and hope that we can do better. The last poster could stand to do a bit of research as to what goes into those statistics. 'Blame the victim' - the sum total of his non-argument, doesn't even begin to cover it. Edited December 3, 2014 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWC01 Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 So what's the solution? Well, it's a complex problem - massive disparity of economic and educational opportunity plays a huge role. But let's just focus on the 'easy' part - a racially biased criminal justice system. Some ideas: 1) End a 42 year long, failed drug war. Fewer arrests overall - less discrimination over all. This would also remove the number one threat to civil liberties. 2) Use newly available Big Data to focus on problem individuals rather than communities or races. Good article today in the NYT on New Yorks AG, Cyrus Vance Jr, who is trying to do just that with some remarkable success. For example: violent repeat offenders, there are about 80 in that city who cause the most trouble. By identifying those individuals and making their histories readily available to stakeholders in the criminal justice system - from police to judges - better decisions can be made as to how to protect society from them. 3) Increased DOJ scrutiny of large municipal police departments with histories of excessive use of force and racially biased policing. 4) Identifying problems jurisdictions so that they can reform themselves. Want to know the most discriminatory municipality in the US? Milwaukee, WI. Nobody wants that honor - Milwaukee included. The court system took a day off to access the problem and come up with solutions - which they are now currently implementing. Anyone disagree with any of these ideas? If so, why? In other words "It's not their fault". Like I said, thinly veiled racism of white guilt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 We might also consider putting an end to voter suppression programs that systematically target black communities - who vote over 90% democrat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWC01 Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Oh, and regarding 'white guilt' - that's just another shitty little rhetorical ploy by those unwilling to be part of the solution against those who are. The burden of being such a hero must be overwhelming, how do you do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 did the black feller just choked to death by the cops for selling untaxed cigs deserve his death too, thus the new york grand jury decision? shit, simple economics right? you try to sell something for 2$ a piece that really only costs 2 cents, aren't you asking for the black market (pardon the pun) to get involved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Oh, and regarding 'white guilt' - that's just another shitty little rhetorical ploy by those unwilling to be part of the solution against those who are. The burden of being such a hero must be overwhelming, how do you do it? the only heroes in this world are in the comic books, boy-o, but that don't mean a feller can't help a little old lady across the street Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 It's a joy, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glassgowkiss Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Acknowledging it's existence is a prerequisite to solving a problem. Let's dispense with bullshit theory about a "few bad apples" in police force across the country. To "protect and serve" should no longer be a motto, and actually so called "good cops" are the minority. Vast majority of cops are abusive assholes, seeking power trips, and control freaks. It goes across the board starting with cops lurking while catching speeders. Public safety my ass, there is no real evidence of co-relation between number of fatalities with speeds below 75mph or less (or 120km/h). So this whole nonsense of lurking around the corners in urban areas is nothing but revenue scam (yeah, because police departments have direct financial benefits from the fines). This continues on, mandatory sentencing, whole "war on drugs" are the following steps of the total escalation of the problem. It goes to use of torture and physical force during interrogations (sleep deprivation, food and drink deprivation are 100% torture methods). Next stop: murder: not Florida only. Looks on what happened in NYC: http://news.yahoo.com/nyc-grand-jury-return-no-indictment-police-choke-193254083.html "Eric Garner, a 43-year-old father of six, was illegally selling cigarettes on July 17 when police officers tackled him and put him in a chokehold. Police said he had been resisting arrest. The city's medical examiner ruled the death a homicide." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Marijuana arrests account for a quarter of all arrests. If blacks don't smoke any more weed than whites (they don't), why are they being arrested for marijuana at three times the rate whites are again? Hmmm. Maybe they smoke more aggressively or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glassgowkiss Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 "Officer Pantaleo's Statement New York's Pix 11 passes along this statement from Officer Pantaleo: "I became a police officer to help people and to protect those who can't protect themselves. It is never my intention to harm anyone and I feel very bad about the death of Mr. Garner. My family and I include him and his family in our prayers and I hope that they will accept my personal condolences for their loss." Fuck your prayers, fuck your statement and fuck you. Protect and serve by crushing somebody's chest and neck! Hey asshole, you are nothing but a murderer and a thug with a badge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Furley Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 This is not a race problem, or an abuse of power problem, this is a self-perpetuating stupidity problem. Stupid guy goes in and strong-arm robs a convenience store. He pushes the owner around, throw his weight around being a big baby bully, then goes out into the neighborhood pissed off at the world. Police officer responds to the scene (doing his job as a public servant, not expecting to have to shoot someone), and shoots the stupid guy after an unsettling confrontation and subsequently getting charged by this 290 pound bully. HARDLY ANYONE crying foul in the aftermath is upset with the thief/bully's behavior, they are angry with the public official tasked with bringing this guy into custody. My question is a difficult one to answer - possibly more so than defining the meaning of life; what in the hell is wrong with you people? The stupidity spreads because people go to climbing forums and social media and tap their main source of news about their world (the Daily Show) and listen to their buddies (who do not know their elbow from their asshole) without doing their own independent research and critical thinking and pretend like they're an expert. Is it sad that a kid had to die? YES. Absolutely. I wish it never happened. Is it sad that people don't get the reasons why this whole incident occurred? THAT is the most troubling part, because it speaks to the larger problem we face as a nation - namely, how on earth did people get to this point in their lives that they can't reason logically and non-emotionally, and what can be done to fix it? Thanks fellers, see you in a month or so! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Chokehold guy was not indited That one does not seem proper - especially that it was a procedure that was not allowed. Fugerson, however, is not as clear due to the attack by Mr. Brown and the forensic evidence, w hich backed up the cop's story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 We might also consider putting an end to voter suppression programs that systematically target black communities . . . Another ridiculous myth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Acknowledging it's existence is a prerequisite to solving a problem. Let's dispense with bullshit theory about a "few bad apples" in police force across the country. To "protect and serve" should no longer be a motto, and actually so called "good cops" are the minority. Vast majority of cops are abusive assholes, seeking power trips, and control freaks. It goes across the board starting with cops lurking while catching speeders. Public safety my ass, there is no real evidence of co-relation between number of fatalities with speeds below 75mph or less (or 120km/h). So this whole nonsense of lurking around the corners in urban areas is nothing but revenue scam (yeah, because police departments have direct financial benefits from the fines). e following steps of the total escalation of the problem. Do you speak from experience or just inference from what you've seen in the media? I work with cops every day in the municipality where I work and in my experience they are reasonable, normal guys and gals trying to do the right thing in a very difficult profession. Sure some of them are assholes, but isn't that to be expected in every profession? Maybe the jurisdiction where I work is different than every other one in the country, but I kind of doubt it. Don't like the drug war or other policy? Talk to your legislator. Cops don't make law, they just do their best to enforce it. Another example: you know who hates traffic stop quotas more than you? Cops. Again, they are told by the powers that be to issue a certain number of fines. You think they like being the assholes who have to do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Vast majority of cops are abusive assholes, seeking power trips, and control freaks. holy shit, you musta been to beacon rock lately! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 I agree with Pete H here. The ACLU works with all stakeholders in the criminal justice system, from legislators to cops, and most people try their best to do the right thing. Needless to say, assuming otherwise without any data isn't productive. The trick is to identify the problem areas, gather enough verifiable data to back up your assertions, figure out a doable path to reform, then assess resources to ensure that program can be successful. One example problem we're dealing with: prison recitivism of indigent folks who cannot pay their their LFOs (legal financial obligations). 4 WA counties are the worst offenders in this regard, and it turns out the county clerks play a key role. Who knew? So we focus on those 4 counties to get a statewide reform program going - one that, if successful, can provide a model for the rest of the country. It's not helpful to try and second guess the motives of these actors. the results of their actions are all that are required. From there, the options are many - but it always starts with a conversation with the actors which includes a detailed report of where we think improvements could be made. Occasionally (not often), this attempt at establishing dialogue is ignored, and escalation is necessary. How that happens - through the legislature, litigation, public information campaigns - varies according to the nature of the problem, the political climate, and the resources available to address it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWC01 Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Marijuana arrests account for a quarter of all arrests. If blacks don't smoke any more weed than whites (they don't), why are they being arrested for marijuana at three times the rate whites are again? Hmmm. Maybe they smoke more aggressively or something? The easiest way not to get arrested for dope is to not possess said dope. It's not a hard concept... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 jesus, your location says you're from oregon! i can count on one hand the # of oregonians i know who DON'T smoke weed, and if a grenade were to blow up in said hand, i'd still probably have enough fingers to touch off the tally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 at any rate, that ain't the point - black n' white folk both DO like them some dope, the difference is blackey gets his balls put to the bandsaw far more frequently when The Man comes around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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