North_by_Northwest Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 I was the one who saw the testing at Vantage. The bag was 220# according to the testers. (Charlie you know you weigh more than that.) The gear was placed as close to Kropp's placements as they could figure, so that may figure into why things broke. The testers showed me a three and a two Camalot (old style) they had tested. One ripped, the other held but was broken (it looked like a smashed cuckoo clock). One of the pieces was actually Kropps and had been in the accident, I don't remember which. The funny thing is that they also tested a wiregate like the ones Kropp had and it didn't break. The gate was taped completely open and it held. I'm not going to jump to conclusions about what the results mean, the guys in the study obviously have a lot to consider before the info is fit for our consumption. Being 190# myself I place more gear now than I did before I saw that fatty bag of rocks smashing into the talus. I'm not going to let it mess with my head though, a short fall on solid gear is still not so scary. Good Gracious, Ass Bodacious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North_by_Northwest Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Afraid?He's going to eat those children! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Can anyone tell me whether a solid gate traditional biner would be more resistant to breaking at the gate than a wiregate when loaded transversely (i.e. in the short direction)? Wire gates (so I am told) were developed for ice climbing where the gate is less likely to vibrate open with rope whistling through it. Obviously, the gate on a wire gate is less strong for any force direction other than longitudinal where the wire is in tension. I'm wondering if I should leave my wire gates at home when I go crack climbing? Cat, I am not sure, exactly what you mean by "transversly," but I assume you mean cross-loaded. Here is the scoop with the wires... A wire gate is made out of steel, which is way stronger than aluminum (obviously) and flexible. So it is almost imposible to break the wire gate of a carabiner while climbing. You are more likely to breal the aluminum spine of the biner if cross-loaded. In that case, it really doesnt matter if the gate is wire or not. You're right about the vibration thing. The reason they vibrate less is because they have less mass. I would trust the wire gates just as much, if not more than a traditional biner, for any type of climbing. More importantly to worry about is the placement of the pro, and the location of the biner. But that's just my opinion. Charlie, I'd say just keep climbing and push through the rut. Be more conservative if that's what it takes. Placing more pro doesn't usualy limit your climbing, as long as your efficient. Just stay off x rated routes. Thats what I do anyway...carry tripples and sew it up if I'm scared. Nothing wrong with that as long as you come home at the end of the day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 NbyN, How did they have the rope set up? Did it go from a fixed anchor at the bottom directly to the top piece they were testing, or did it also pass through any intermediate pieces? In order to perform a realistic test they would have to put in 6 pieces as Kropp did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 NbyNW, Was the bag being belayed? Did they drop it off the top or what? Seems like a wild experiment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 He was too busy lookin down some skank's shirt to notice. Charlie if I'm 190 your 250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Thanks, Lambone. I did mean cross-loaded. It's good to know those wire gates are as strong or stronger. I've always liked them because they are light and clip easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North_by_Northwest Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 They had a shitload of gear going in all directions and I didn't take the time to figure it all out. From what I saw they were testing one piece at a time on a rope that was fixed at the base of the climb. The test bag was hauled up until it was X distance above the piece, then cut loose. The guys who were involved are probably holding back until they come out with a result, so our speculations are pretty meaningless at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 The wire is the strongest part of the biner. It will bend, but the aluminum will allways break first. Most of the companies that make wires have good photo's of wire biners broken in their testing facilities. The gate it'self is never broken, instaed the body of the biner is. Here is something to beware of though. Once on a totaly clusterfucked wall anchor, one of the biners got cross-loaded while it was weighted. All of the stress was on the wire gate, which caused it to bend sideways. later i was using the biner on lead and noticed that the gate no longer closed properly because it was bent. I was able to bend it back, but I used the biner for my water bottle for the rest of the climb. Just something to watch for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North_by_Northwest Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Charlie's too petrified of that big Samoan to respond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 If the fall of the bag was on a static belay, then the test was pretty meaningless as well. Except for maybe showing that a static belay will break gear. But whatever... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North_by_Northwest Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 I can't say whether it was static or not, I didn't check out what they had going close enough. Either way, I don't think we're in any position to say whether their test was meaningful or not, there's too much we don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 Charlie: I was pretty freaked out as well right away. Dropped back to following harder stuff or just toproping or just leading easy routes I know I wont fall on. I've already started leading a little closer to where I was prior to the accident and decided it was one of those things where a series of failures caused the accident. And let me ask you this - Have you ever taken a whipper and had your cam explode? I didn't think so. Me neither. Nobody else I know has either. Sure it can happen, but hardly ever. Take 'er easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted January 9, 2003 Author Share Posted January 9, 2003 Fuck you guys I just got back from a run, attempting to return from my "has been" status. As for the Samoaphobia, the new assault rifle is helping some what. Seriously, thanks for the input guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Simpkins Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 I agree, a static belay is for the most part unrealistic and would be unscientific for the test. Do you know if the cam that broke was from the original accident? Or did that cam rip out in the experiment? If cams are freaking you out, use hexes or tricams. Better yet, hammer it up! ...... kidding. But if you use tricams, watch out for those , they love the webbing on the little pink ones! Sometimes when I get sketched, I take a controlled fall on purpose or hang from the gear to help boost my confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obsydian Posted January 9, 2003 Share Posted January 9, 2003 Regarding a cam eploding, I know a buddy who took a screamer in Yosemite, the stem of a .75 camelot came right off , the head of the cam still wedged in the crack, broke right off. This was an overhead crack so the weight was straight down. He went about 50 feet, luckily nothing in his way. But not aware of the gears all coming apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erden Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 I am going to respond to the main question, but could not help quoting the below: If the fall of the bag was on a static belay, then the test was pretty meaningless as well. Except for maybe showing that a static belay will break gear. The belay was closer to static than not. In my reply to Lambone dated 10/02/02 07:08 PM on page (4) of the Death at the Coulee thread, I explained that the rope strangulated my left arm, reducing any slip in the belay system to nill. This is also in the accident report dated: 10-01-2002 06:32 PM in the same thread. My response to Lambone dated 10/02/02 09:56 PM in the same thread explains the circumstances that led to the strangulation of my left arm by the rope. I shared my input on the circumstances of the belay during the accident with Dr. Helmut Mycroys, the UIAA Safety Rep for North America, and with Mike Gauthier, no need for introductions. Mike took over the investigation, and is consolidating all of the information on the accident. The additional tests on Air Guitar would have been done by Mike Gauthier and Lee Davis, an expert engineer, and a climber. I will confirm this. They would have wanted to understand the holding power of cams and carabiners in different configurations. Maybe it is worthwhile to mention that I am a mechanical engineer with a masters degree and an ABD. Having said the above, I would like to argue that plenty of qualified individuals have volunteered their time to come up with a complete understanding of the accident. What is meaningless is to let our words dribble out in ways that can be construed the wrong way. Let's try to be more appreciative, and to keep a good memory of the history of events before stirring the pot. Thanks, Erden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_Gauthier Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Wow, You guys seem to think you know a lot about our testing...??? Hey Lambone, you're statements stink... Shall we Monday-Morning QB your rescue this summer? I heard some rumors about your incident from the SAR responders and helicopter crew... N by NW put it correctly, "I don't think we're in any position to say whether their test was meaningful or not, there's too much we don't know." Please keep speculation and opinions based on hearsay to a minimum. Otherwise inaccurate, and possibly hurtful, information will be spewed. Thanks Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 erden, your body no doubt absorbed much energy from Kropp's fall. A catch of a fall with device like a GriGri attached at the waist would be a harder catch than having the rope tied off to your arm, let alone slipping around your arm. I would venture a guess that your catch of Kropp's fall was more dynamic than the majority of catches of falls these days (and not "closer to static than not"), given the prevalence of belay devices like the GriGri. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thenodder Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 The nodder? Oh my god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telemarker Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 I was leading Air Guitar two weeks ago when near the crack starts to get wide, there was an older twin-stem #2 Camalot jammed in the crack, blocking a really nice hand jam by the way. I later went up again to try to extract it, but it's going to take some hammering. Reading these posts, I suspect it's the camalot they were testing on and which indeed looked like it exploded. What I also remember of the camalot is that it was looped with green spectra (5mm?) and not a sewn sling. Just a detail I thought was worth adding if anyone else is alarmed by this "test". Like others have said, the rule at Vantage is sew it up. If you have the gear, use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 The rule at Vantage is : if you dont like scary, death choss, dont go to Vantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinoregon Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Well, I was planning on getting some cams, but now I think I will reconsider. In all my years of climbing I have owned only 1 cam and I hardly ever use it (it was a gift too). I think I will just stick to my good ol' stoppers. At least I know they will take some screamers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Bill Robins, who died this year in Argentina, used to recommend the exclusive use of cams at Vantage. The only time I went there a cam I fell on pulled out and it was a hex that caught my fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinker Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 So Mike (or Erden, or anyone else involved with the investigation), When is the accident investigation scheduled to be completed and made public? Providing that date could go a long way toward helping folks find the patience they need to refrain from the speculation you (and many others) find so objectionable. I look forward to reading the report of findings. I hope the investigation techniques, including scenarios considered, testing methods considered, and conclusions (including any dissenting opinions) are fully described. The report from this investigation really has the potential to break new ground in several areas, as well as to educate climbers about a few aspects of our systems of protection and the methods of accident investigation. I'm personally content to await the final report before critiqing the methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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