Jump to content
  • Announcements

    • olyclimber

      WELCOME TO THE CASCADECLIMBERS.COM FORUMS   02/03/18

      We have upgraded to new forum software as of late last year, and it makes everything here so much better!  It is now much easier to do pretty much anything, including write Trip Reports, sell gear, schedule climbing related events, and more. There is a new reputation system that allows for positive contributors to be recognized,  it is possible to tag content with identifiers, drag and drop in images, and it is much easier to embed multimedia content from Youtube, Vimeo, and more.  In all, the site is much more user friendly, bug free, and feature rich!   Whether you're a new user or a grizzled cascadeclimbers.com veteran, we think you'll love the new forums. Enjoy!
Sign in to follow this  
dave schultz

[TR] Liberty Ridge w/ Partial Ski Descent 4/11-14

Recommended Posts

OK, the cat's out of the bag.

 

I cut the lock at the gate. We had a discussion about the options that we had, and we chose this one. Looking back, it was obviously the wrong choice; but at the time, it's the one we went with.

 

The first two of us met the NPS on Sunday. When we came out on Monday, we met the NPS at the gate. I told the ranger I cut the lock without attempting to conceal anything. We were issued fines and citations for the violation

 

I had originally included this information in the trip report, but did not want to turn the trip report into a report about cutting locks ....

 

Was it a bad idea, a stupid and avoidable problem? Yes, without a doubt, a very stupid move, and one that could have easily ended up a lot worse. I am sincerely sorry for the bad example that was set, and will make better decisions in the future.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An utter embarrassment for those of us required to live under the rule of law, even though it sometimes holds us back. You're lucky you got away as lightly as you apparently did. And if you were riding snowmobiles in The Park after the lock-cutting....take your "triumph" down a few notches. Not cool, dude(s). Learn your lesson and move on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ah...but who amongst us hasn't tasted the forbidden cherries of rainier? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cutting locks is way bad style. Puts your whole ascent/descent into the "who fucking cares" category. You made your mea culpa, but you could have seriously fucked it up for everyone into the future. And then to stroke your meat on the Interwebs, pics and all, without a mention of your shitty "mistake". What's the point of even leaving the house? Not impressed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

vthread

 

IMG_20140413_171836.jpg

 

Tag line worked great for raps

 

In this pic with the v thread, is the tag line running through the v thread holes? Have not seen that setup before, although also haven't climbed with a tag line either, so wondering if that is a typical setup. Obviously leaves nothing behind when you pull the ropes, but I'd be concerned (not having tried it before) with friction when trying to pull them.

 

This isn't recommended due to the significant risk of having a thin rope under load freeze into the V thread.

 

Then the party gets to have The Discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never used a tag line, but I thought it was usually set up to always pull the tag line. That way the increased friction that is likely to be found on the thicker strand of your climbing rope won't tend to pull the knot down... it'll get blocked by moving by the anchor (or ice). I guess the only advantage to this system is that you immediately start getting climbing rope back when you pull.... so if anything were to get stuck, you're not left with just tag line?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the rope freezes into the V thread, you won't get much rope back.

 

The other problem with this setup is knot slip due to the difference in friction through your rap device. This is a great way to rap off the end of your rope.

 

We ran the tag line through a rap station recently (7.8mm + 10mm) and the knot slipped 15 feet. 35 m rap with two ropes, so it wasn't a problem in that instance.

 

The advantage of running the thinner line through the anchor is that it's easier to pull.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've never used a tag line, but I thought it was usually set up to always pull the tag line. That way the increased friction that is likely to be found on the thicker strand of your climbing rope won't tend to pull the knot down... it'll get blocked by moving by the anchor (or ice). I guess the only advantage to this system is that you immediately start getting climbing rope back when you pull.... so if anything were to get stuck, you're not left with just tag line?

 

I've rapped V-threads/A-Threads with this setup (including straight through the V-thread with no tat), and done the same for rock rapps on many occasions (pulling the thicker climber rope rather than the tag). I never have had the knot "migrate" or slip more than a few inches if I am being an attentive rappeller. I do it exactly for the reason you guessed at, you will immediately begin by pulling your climbing rope, not the static pull cord. If something gets snagged, you will have some/all of your dynamic rope, not just a chunk of static tag line.

 

Between my partner and I, the first person almost always raps on single-strand, fixed line, so there is only one rappeller who could move the knot.

 

 

P.S. I remember reading in Freedom of the Hills about how bolt cutters wedged into a crevasse make an excellent rap anchor as well. :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, but you don't have a Samsquanch for a partner. All kinds of physical laws get broken.

 

The fixie first method is a great way to send a brother down to scout the next anchor in a reversible fashion.

 

Reckon the V thread thing is pretty conditions dependent. If it hasn't frozen in by rapper #3…

Edited by tvashtarkatena

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
An utter embarrassment for those of us required to live under the rule of law, even though it sometimes holds us back. You're lucky you got away as lightly as you apparently did. And if you were riding snowmobiles in The Park after the lock-cutting....take your "triumph" down a few notches. Not cool, dude(s). Learn your lesson and move on.

 

I was curious about the snowmobiling myself and was shocked to discover that snowmobiles are allowed up to the White River Campground and other closed roads in the park during the winter. Seems a little out of character with the park but it's sanctioned.

 

Dave - very bizarre twist. You guys clearly wanted the climb badly and were willing to take risks both (ethical and technical) that I wouldn't deem acceptable. Better choices next time eh?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Strong work Guys. I've done that route but couldn't imagine skiing it. Why is the gate locked in the first place? The Federal Government needs to protect us from ourselves? I respect your act of conscientious objection. I think if more Americans had the courage to push back against the constant encroachment on our freedoms it would slow it down considerably. The NPS has zero credibility after holding us all hostage last October for political purposes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cutting the lock doesn't raise my pulse rate, personally, but - just to keep things within the Earth's gravitational influence, I'm not sure the intent was protest. Seems like these guys were willing to pay The Man to get some early is all. If viewed as an act of civil disobedience, this likely accomplished nothing other than perhaps upping the NPS budget for a better lock. On the flip side, I doubt the NPS is now ready to wage Jihad on climbers. Not with the kind of cash we bring in, anyway.

 

Now, if Edward Snowden had cut that lock, OK, now we're talkin. But Snowden doesn't ski, although he may be doing some track skiing now, given his new digs.

 

If you're gunning for government perps, the NPS seems pretty far down on the list of agencies to target for their abuses. A lot of Americans ARE pushing back against one of the most power hungry governments in human history - just in a more strategic, coordinated, and effective manner. It's amazing how well advocates can push back using official channels if action is strategic, coordinated, long term, and adequately funded.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the rappel set ups, it seems all are good points. The reasons the set up in the picture worked well for us was:

 

1) dynamic rope was 8mm and tag was 6mm, not a big difference.

2) we rapped with both cords through the device, the difference in friction was negligible between the two, therefore there was no rope slip.

3) we were able to avoid the semi-time consuming process of creating a closed loop through the v-thread by simply feeding and pulling through the end on the 6mm tag (also avoided leaving and loosing the closed loops).

4) if any rope slip would occur, the heavier rope (8mm) would pull down, with the knot positioned where it was, it would not get stuck in the v-thread. Additionally, the 6mm was longer, keeping the overall distance similar.

 

This was not a true "tag" as much as it was simply a lighter, non-climbing rope. We opted for this purely to save weight and hassle. If the route would have demanded a longer climbing rope, a single 60m would have been better. We only made two consecutive rappels once, and we simul climbed all but the first, exploratory pitch on the glacier ice. Except for the first pitch, having only a 30m rope always never limiting, and we made rappels as if we had a 60m rope - seems like the system worked very well.

 

Using a light tag with a thicker rope (> 9.5mm) would have had issues with rope slip, but then we probably would have done the traditional tag line, and done single rope rappels vice mixing ropes with such a different diameter in the rappel device. The other option would be a longer (60m), thin rope - but you can't split that between two people for the non- technical ( except kiwi coil) and you would have a lot of extra rope to deal with. When the glaciers are more broken up, or more people, a single, longer skinny is probably better.

 

I haven't considered (nor ever heard of) the rope freezing into the v-thread, not sure when or how that would happen - except when pulling it after the rappel, but it shouldn't matter then as your pulling the whole system out ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i've read/researched discussion about rope freeze into v-thread and never read of an instance of that happening. If there is flowing water and the rope is wet maybe its a less than great idea. Seems fine in this instance.

 

put me in the camp of don't give a rats about the lock. but ride your sled in wilderness ok i'd be pissed. rainier is a bitch about access even when things are 'open'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In Cody this Jan the rope was freezing to the surface of the ice - not even passing through any obstructions or anything.

 

You get certain conditions - wet ropes from a drippy route in cold, windy conditions and your rope will stick to anything and everything.

 

Personally, the smallest thing I'll rap off of is 7 mm. Anything thinner doesn't afford enough safety margin for me when knot factor, edges, and a bit of accidental bounce are added to the mix. V threads are often thinner, but you only use them once and edges aren't an issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, in wet and drippy conditions the rope freezing to the ice or in the v thread could certainly become a problem. We had nothing close to those conditions, and i doubt that they occur often, if ever, on a big mountain route. Seems that it's a problem almost exclusive to seasonal waterfall ice routes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i always wondered about that scene from "ghostbusters" - you know, the one where venkman rolls up for his date, only to find she's been possessed by the gatekeeper - he makes it all okay of course, by shooting her up w/ a ton of thorazine, but man, what strange set of circumstances led to him showing up to the party w/ that stuff anyhow? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i always wondered about that scene from "ghostbusters" - you know, the one where venkman rolls up for his date, only to find she's been possessed by the gatekeeper - he makes it all okay of course, by shooting her up w/ a ton of thorazine, but man, what strange set of circumstances led to him showing up to the party w/ that stuff anyhow? :)

 

Gotta be prepared for anything. And in NYC, that includes possessed women.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Strong work Guys. I've done that route but couldn't imagine skiing it. Why is the gate locked in the first place? The Federal Government needs to protect us from ourselves? I respect your act of conscientious objection. I think if more Americans had the courage to push back against the constant encroachment on our freedoms it would slow it down considerably. The NPS has zero credibility after holding us all hostage last October for political purposes.

 

I agree, WB. I would go a step further and ask why the WRR was gated in the first place. Cutting locks isn't everybody's cup of tea, and I don't recommend it, but if I were Dave & Co I wouldn't be too quick to just roll over for the guys with the uniforms and the big hats.

 

http://www.nps.gov/mora/planyourvisit/winter-recreation.htm#CP_JUMP_147158

 

In the southwest corner of the park, snowmobiles are permitted for 6.5 miles along the Westside Road from its junction with the main park road as far as Round Pass. Beyond Round Pass, the Westside Road is closed to snowmobile use. Snowmobiles are also permitted on all the road loops of Cougar Rock Campground. The campground is closed to overnight use during winter and the roadway is left unplowed. Contact a park ranger at the Longmire Information Center for maps and additional snowmobile information.

 

On the north side of the park, no ranger station is open in the winter. The US Forest Service District Office in Enumclaw provides information and maps for White River, Carbon River, and Mowich Lake areas. For more information, call the USFS District Office in Enumclaw at (360) 825-6585. Highway 410 is closed near its junction with Crystal Mountain Ski Area road, at the north park boundary.

 

Snowmobiles are permitted on the 12-mile section of unplowed road from the north park boundary on Highway 410 to the White River Campground. Snowmobiles may not continue on Hwy 410 south of the White River Road turnoff. They are also prohibited from proceeding beyond the closure at the White River Campground road junction towards Sunrise. Snowmobiles must stay on the road corridor; they are not allowed to proceed beyond the campground towards Glacier Basin. Be aware of avalanche danger and the weather forecast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMO: Dumb to cut the lock.

 

But no more dumb that NPS staff using the gated road for their own climbing outings while it remains closed to the public. They routinely do this on the upper West Side road in the summer as well. My opinion: If the public is obliged to walk so should the NPS staff, unless it's a rescue. It's a National Park, not a private playground.

 

+1 to the point about MORA staff throwing access and the public under the bus last fall, too. They don't give a rat's ass about the public/access, just their budget.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IMO: Dumb to cut the lock.

 

But no more dumb that NPS staff using the gated road for their own climbing outings while it remains closed to the public. They routinely do this on the upper West Side road in the summer as well. My opinion: If the public is obliged to walk so should the NPS staff, unless it's a rescue. It's a National Park, not a private playground.

 

+1 to the point about MORA staff throwing access and the public under the bus last fall, too. They don't give a rat's ass about the public/access, just their budget.

 

Well said. We are now two years past the twenty-year "reevaluation" called for in the 1992 EA that closed WSR--and the folks at MORA have chosen to simply ignore their own mandate. To be fair, they are restoring the ("their") patrol cabin at Lake George (and the one at Ipsut too), but it really bugs me when I see NPS staff cruising around on quads and in pickup trucks back-and-forth all the way out to Klapatche Point while everyone else walks or bicycles. (This latter practice they'll eventually ban too, I'm sure.) Definitely some bureaucratic class-ism taking place at all three of our state's major national parks. Sadly, MORA is not the worst.

 

 

Anyhow, great TR Dave. Enjoyed your tales of adventure.

Edited by Fairweather

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×