Avy, seven buried, one dead

[max]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/aplocal_story.asp?category=6420&slug=WA%20Fatal%20Avalanche

[Figger_Eight]

I was up there skiing today and heard about it in the parking lot. Interesting comment Troyer makes about "no avalanche warning signs up". Big bummer.

[scot'teryx]

Jerry Sanchez was in that group, and he came out safe and sound. Really scary to hear about an organized group going out in the backcountry during "considerable danger" conditions.

 

With the recent history of wind, loading of the slopes, and all the snow that has dumped, it really makes me ask way too many questions. A tragic accident, my condolences to the family. I hope alot can be learned from this, I know I did.

[texplorer]

"The group, part of the Seattle Mountaineers Club. . . "

[JoshK]

"Although more than 20 inches of snow has fallen near Norse Peak in the past three days, officials said skiing conditions were safe."

 

Uh... it wasn't safe. At least according to what I heard while in the patrol hut up there today the incident occured on a loaded north aspect slope. The coditions were ripe for slides on those aspects. Also, I'm not sure what they mean by "there were no avalanche warnings up." Since when does a lack of a warning from an outside party make a slope safe or unsafe? I nearly got hit by a slide last year during "low" conditions.

 

In any event, my codolences. When I heard about the incident this afternoon it made me queasy. I never like thinking about that sort of thing and how close to home it can hit.

[Gary_Yngve]

What I'm curious of is how seven of them got swept down... if they were crossing an avy slope, shouldn't they have been more spread out? Or was the avy really that big?

 

Of course, I'm just speculating and by no means criticising... just want answers. I hope there's a lot we all can learn from this incident.

[Gary_Yngve]

More info:

 

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134605198_avalanche30m.html

[Cpt.Caveman]

Not related but---

 

I posted something brief about our encounters saturday on the mountaineers creek road up towards the Colchuk Lake trail. We heard the rush of the snow several times including breaking trees, and grinding boulders. We hightailed it outta there. Didn't think that area was prone to much avvy. But looking at the map you are actually contouring the south and west slopes of an 8,500 foot peak. There was about 12-18 inches of snow max in most places. The danger level was defnitely significant. Bummer for them.

[gapertimmy]

We had a minor slide on Bachelor yesterday as well, off the moraine of the upper bowl. Luckily, a patrol member triggered the slide before any guests were on the mountain as the slide covered the popular summit cross over trail.

 

Everyone needs to be safe even when skiing questionable aspects just out of bounds at resorts as well.

 

My thoughts and prayers are with the family and am thankful the others made it out ok.

 

Tim

[Attitude]

This is second hand info:

 

The tv news report from last night quoted the two members of the second party as saying that two members of the Mounties party were below, three were skiing in the middle, and two were above. The top two of the Mounties party above triggered the slide. I don't think all were caught up in the avalanche.

 

Best wishes to the survivors and the families and friends.

 

(Edit: Turns out one of the survivors is a friend.)

Edited December 30, 2002 by Attitude

[mattp]

Scot-

I'm sorry, but I disagree with your statement that it is

"really scary to hear about an organized group going out in the backcountry during considerable danger conditions."

Just about any time when there has been recent snowfall -- that is just about any time you will find powder skiing anywhere but in a shaded north-facing bowl -- the avalanche hazard will be rated "considerable" or above. We can, and I am sure that plenty of people will, second guess their decisions and their party management. After all, there had been a significant amount of recent snow and it sounds as if they failed to ski one at a time and spot each other, etc. But I believe that most backcountry skiers do not stay home or even stay in the woods when the avalanche hazard is rated "considerable" and I find that most of my frieinds are too impatient to properly spot each other and ski one at a time unless they are truly scared. Today's paper said the avalanche ran only 400 feet, so I bet it was not one of those huge slopes that any of us would immediately be afraid of.

 

 

[CascadeClimber]

Isn't "Considerable" just the middle rating on the five-rating scale? I wonder how many days we have below that on an average winter?

 

Besides, the rating system is only a guide- you can find stable slopes on "Extreme" days and unstable slopes on "Low" days.

 

They are saying there is a very, very weak layer right now. Let's all be especially cautious.

 

My thoughts and prayers to those involved in this tragedy.

 

-Loren

[Attitude]

"The group, part of the Seattle Mountaineers Club. . . "

 

Hey Tex,

 

I'm a little slow. Can you elaborate on the meaning of your post?

[Jens]

A very sad item of news.

 

I skied Crystal a few days ago. I was pretty surprised to hear about this.

There was lots of terrain anchoring on all aspects due to low snowpack. Did the record high winds transport large quantities of snow leading to slab formation?

Does anybody have a good memory- Haven't we had some winters where it has stayed at "considerable" or higher every single day for 3 months straight for elevations above 5,000 ft.? If you aren't going out when the hotline says "considerable" you aren't doing anything for a really long time. In my humble opinion the mountaineers crew were just unlucky?

We've got some real good avy gurus around here. Anyone do any test pits or column tests lately?

[fern]

I don't know if the same system is used in WA, but FWIW the Canadian Avalanche Danger Descriptors (1998) describes Considerable thus:

 

Probability and Trigger: Natural avalanches possible. Human triggered avalanches probable.

 

Recommended Action: Be increasingly cautious in steeper terrain.

 

 

[fleblebleb]

Conditions: natural/spontaneous, human-triggered

 

Low: very unlikely, unlikely

Moderate: unlikely, possible

Considerable: possible, probable

High: likely

Extreme: certain

 

Same scale everywhere in NA?

[klenke]

Damn it! This makes two years in a row I've lost a climbing friend in an avalanche. Last year, Georgia. Now this year Don Dovey. I last saw Don in November. We had planned a few out-of-state climbs for next summer. I met Don on Mt. Thomson in June 2001. We had done four or five climbs together including a couple Leavenworth excursions. Most recently, we climbed Mt. Index in May.

 

My commiserations to the Dovey family.

[Alex]

fleb and fern, yes PNW and Banff/Jasper have same system anyway, I'd imagine its the same system everywhere in NA.

[Cpt.Caveman]

RE-Hey Tex,

 

I'm a little slow. Can you elaborate on the meaning of your post?

 

************************************

 

What are you doing to do about it if it was meant in a smart ass tone. Nothing but whine. Why dont you play internet cop somewhere else.

[mbcracken]

Here you are Cave... Avy Scale from CSAC

 

-Mike

[Cpt.Caveman]

Re-Here you are Cave... Avy Scale from CSAC

 

-Mike

*********************

Thanks. I think that somebody else was asking for the info not me.

[To_The_Top]

Reading some posts and know that the press cannot get stuff like this right.

Condolences to those who know the injured/passed on.

Talked to JERRY today and he is doing as good as can be in a situation like this.

Sure more details will come out later.

TTT

[Cpt.Caveman]

Fuckin a! Glad to hear not everyone was dead. Bummer to hear that even one person died. I am no snow expert, and learn every season as it progresses and keep the memories filed for the next one. Mostly I am glad that Col. spankhismonkey and I were not added to the casualty list.

 

Be aware of all your surroundings and then try to think about what you might have forgotten. My buddy Crack bought me a book for xmas just small enough to bring and read in my car. I'll take it before I go on a winter trip to refresh my memory. It's small enough to fit in a large pocket of clothes.

[SEF]

Snow is so seductive and can be so dangerous. I know too many who have died in it. The expert and the novice can both be entrapped. Don Dovey was the latest. I knew him, and he was no novice.

 

A couple days ago I visited Big Four. Although I would not venture closer than the trail viewpoint perhaps 50 yards from the lowest “cave,” I saw tourists who were playing in the fresh avalanche debris near it and shuddered. “Hey, that was a good one” one of them yelled when spindrift came down nearby. They soon left, still playful in their ignorance. As they passed, I said nothing, not wanting to spoil their bliss; the danger passed. They could not have avoided the wrning sign on their way in, and I could not add to that. Witnessing the same today, I would be unable to remain silent.

 

More knowledge does not, by itself, make you safer. Avalanche forecasts do not, by themselves, put you in danger. Descisions must be made when face to face with a slope. None of us are immune from making poor decisions. Far too often, hindsight flavors our view of the quality of decisions past, hindsight from events that happen, good or bad, after the decision. Let us not judge, but do our best to make the right decision when we next face it.

 

I am so sorry for Don’s family and friends.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Re-More knowledge does not, by itself, make you safer

 

Knowledge does make you safer but not immune. If you know what knowledge to process and remember. It's education that will help but it is not the "savior" we all wish it could be. Not to be a nitpicker but let's keep it real too. Otherwise nobody would take or process any information about avalanches and their works. I did notice the "by itself" clause.