JayB Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 no wonder you like lenin in seattle- unions were outlawed in all the countries controlled by moscow. and for pretty similar to reasons to what fdr stated - The People already have your best interests in mind, so what do you need to organize for? for my part, i don't think the union should be all powerful in the education world. it's one governmental entity that needs balancing by others. we advocate for our interests, the admins for theirs and the politicians in theory for everybody else. it's hard to have faith that The People (through their representatives) will look after all my interests since a decent number of them aren't really supportive of public education to begin with and would be perfectly happy to drown the baby. If you were born into the profession and forever condemned to serve at the public's mercy then this argument would be more compelling, but teachers, like everyone else, voluntarily choose to enter the profession and can exit the profession whenever they choose. That's usually the answer I get (you choose to teach and you can quit if you don't like how you are treated) when I point out that there's no guarantee that a given *union* will adequately represent an individual union member's interests, either. The finest teacher I ever had left the field after being pushed out of her position by an incompetent and un-motivated lifer who had lots of seniority and union connections on his side. That was nothing short of a travesty and every kid at the school with an ounce of drive, talent, and interest in the subject was materially worse for it. Having said that, I'd be quite happy to have teachers organize and advocate for their interests however they see fit, so long as parents have control over which school gets their money. For some reason even advocates of balance between the various parties with a stake in public education never like the final equilibrium where that set of incentives takes you. That's kind of surprising given the claims about what a great job the current unionized monopoly is doing educating the kids (seriously). From what I have seen, when you disaggregate the data and compare apples to apples (kids in the US who come from non-underclass environments to kids in other countries who come from similar environments)there's actually quite a bit of support for the idea that most public schools in the US are doing a good job relative to the rest of the world. Who knows - under a regime where the parents had control over where there kid's money went, you could end up with a situation with unionized teachers that spend significantly less money on administrative overhead, allow for more professional freedom, and pay teachers more. Too bad we'll never get to see whether or not that's the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 i've only been a union member for 10 years but have never seen such a situation that you describe jay - what were the details of your guy's departure? parents routinely choose which school will get their money by choosing which school district they wish to buy a house and settle down in - i'm not rabidly opposed to school vouchers either - doesn't seem like they've made a big difference where they've been used and it seems like it just ends up adding admin and overhead, but whatever - give me a room and some kids and i'll make it work... the failure of the washington state congress to provide funding for the voter approved cost of living adjustments for the past half-decade has hurt, i assure you, but my union hasn't walked off the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I see a whole lotta $70-$85k. Pretty good money, IMO. My guess is that most deserve it--but far too many don't. http://wwwb.thenewstribune.com/databases/school_pay/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrov Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 my mom's on the list. She earns it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) One can appreciate Jay's recommendation to further worsen the already dire wealth disparity. This disparity is particularly egregious in our schools, which are too heavily funded by local property taxes. We need to go the other direction, actually, if we're going to reverse the shitshow we're creating. Funding for public schools is an equal protection issue - it should not rely on who can afford a McMansion and who cannot. A po kid should get just as good an education as a rich one. If the rich want better, there are private schools. Or should poor kids be punished for the situation they were born into? Regarding giving parents the funding call - my neighbor is prez of her PTA - and she reports it is a pen of dysfunctional idiots. I've heard the same from many parents. The last person you want making a 'public good' funding decision is a rabid parent who cares about li'l Timmy and nobody else. If parents want better schools, they can vote to better fund and manage ALL schools - not just li'l Timmy's. A healthy amount of Zen detachment there is preferred if you want a fairer outcome. That is, if you want that fairer outcome. I do. Edited February 13, 2014 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Beckerich Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Lenin? OMGosh... that is potentially offensive. I would support the re-casting idea. What a fantastic opportunity to turn a symbol of evil into a symbol of good? Symbolic symbols are the best kind of symbolism. It should be recast into a relevant, contemory symbol of our progress as a race and culture. It should be recast into a statue of two dudes making out. Hands up shirts, legs wrapped up, beards mingling in passion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I see a whole lotta $70-$85k. http://wwwb.thenewstribune.com/databases/school_pay/ lol. OK, so it's annoying because the website makes you subscribe if you have more than like 5 views, which makes it hard to average any kind of numbers -- but I assumed you must have done this since you certainly wouldn't have just jumped to the conclusion that "I see a whole lotta $70-$85k" just by glancing at the first page of 20 employees out of tens of thousands, right? so imagine my surprise when I discovered that a) it's pretty easy to bypass their registration screen and even query their database yourself and b) the average pay for teaching positions is not anywhere near what you suggest it is. Weird, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 keep in mind folks in this database are not all members of my union - you also have paraprofessionals (teacher's aides and the like) and adminstrators (principals, head office types, etc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I'm sure FW filtered the data to teaching positions only, before coming up with his "whole lotta $85k" figure. His math just not work the same as mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) I'm sure FW filtered the data to teaching positions only, before coming up with his "whole lotta $85k" figure. His math just not work the same as mine. Now do you see what I have to go through with these people, FW? I know you're already wise to this, but stick with dumb friends. Cow-eyed head nods - so much easier. Lenin making out with Stalin. That would be beyond awesome. Edited February 13, 2014 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 One can appreciate Jay's recommendation to further worsen the already dire wealth disparity. This disparity is particularly egregious in our schools, which are too heavily funded by local property taxes. We need to go the other direction, actually, if we're going to reverse the shitshow we're creating. Funding for public schools is an equal protection issue - it should not rely on who can afford a McMansion and who cannot. A po kid should get just as good an education as a rich one. If the rich want better, there are private schools. Or should poor kids be punished for the situation they were born into? Regarding giving parents the funding call - my neighbor is prez of her PTA - and she reports it is a pen of dysfunctional idiots. I've heard the same from many parents. The last person you want making a 'public good' funding decision is a rabid parent who cares about li'l Timmy and nobody else. If parents want better schools, they can vote to better fund and manage ALL schools - not just li'l Timmy's. A healthy amount of Zen detachment there is preferred if you want a fairer outcome. That is, if you want that fairer outcome. I do. DOES NOT COMPUTE-DOES NOT COMPUTE-DOES NOT COMPUTE-DOES NOT COMPUTE- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I've never lusted after a gif so hard. I fkn love that robot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I see a whole lotta $70-$85k. http://wwwb.thenewstribune.com/databases/school_pay/ lol. OK, so it's annoying because the website makes you subscribe if you have more than like 5 views, which makes it hard to average any kind of numbers -- but I assumed you must have done this since you certainly wouldn't have just jumped to the conclusion that "I see a whole lotta $70-$85k" just by glancing at the first page of 20 employees out of tens of thousands, right? so imagine my surprise when I discovered that a) it's pretty easy to bypass their registration screen and even query their database yourself and b) the average pay for teaching positions is not anywhere near what you suggest it is. Weird, right? Not sure how TTK's pet jellyfish derives average from I see a lotta, but hey, the point remains that teacher's poverty claims are questionable--at best. Especially given their 180+ a few schedule. As to Ivan's more thoughtful response, well, I agree it's total bullshit that a salary sort for, say, Seattle SD reveals pages of admin jobs (non-union, even!) that are pulling down more than the state Governor. Not to mention the guaranteed pension and health benefits that the common folk in the private sector no longer enjoy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) I'm sure FW filtered the data to teaching positions only, before coming up with his "whole lotta $85k" figure. His math just not work the same as mine. Now do you see what I have to go through with these people, FW? I know you're already wise to this, but stick with dumb friends. Cow-eyed head nods - so much easier. Ah yes, more personal insults along with the private club/my friends/our sandbox meme you're so fond of. Love it. One of my favorites. Still, you should see some of the PMs I've received about you from your very own entourage over the years. Not flattering at all. Edited February 14, 2014 by Fairweather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I see a whole lotta $85k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Speak of the devil... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I see a whole lotta $70-$85k. Pretty good money, IMO. My guess is that most deserve it--but far too many don't. http://wwwb.thenewstribune.com/databases/school_pay/ My last monthly pay stub? $3824.43. And that is typical. I have been teaching for 22 years and have 9 years of college credit under my belt. Do I want a pay raise? No. I want class sizes that will allow me more than the average 1.66 minutes of one-on-one contact time per student per day. Recently, more than half of my 31-33 students/class were gone to see the bird parade and I was actually able to have a real conversation with each student in each of my classes. It was a glimpse at the way things should be. I usually feel like I am doing a shitty job because I can't keep up with all the bullshit busy work I have to do on daily basis and give my students timely (read "in context") feedback on the the learning they demonstrate. And here's a healthy "fuck you" to whoever brought up the 180+afewyouhavethesummeroff comment. I start at 6:30 am, every day. I end at 4:00 pm, (unless there is a staff meeting or parent conference after school). I work 2 hours, every evening assessing my students learning (and still lose ground steadily from Sept to July) because I have no time in-building to do that part of my job. I also put in 2 hours every Sunday assessing my students learning. I field calls and e-mails on a daily basis from parents who think their kid's getting a raw deal because I insist (via invitations to attend after school work time) that they actually complete assignments and turn them in. Are there teachers who don't deserve the $19.40/hour salary I get? Sure there are, but they are the minority in my building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I see a whole lotta $70-$85k. http://wwwb.thenewstribune.com/databases/school_pay/ lol. OK, so it's annoying because the website makes you subscribe if you have more than like 5 views, which makes it hard to average any kind of numbers -- but I assumed you must have done this since you certainly wouldn't have just jumped to the conclusion that "I see a whole lotta $70-$85k" just by glancing at the first page of 20 employees out of tens of thousands, right? so imagine my surprise when I discovered that a) it's pretty easy to bypass their registration screen and even query their database yourself and b) the average pay for teaching positions is not anywhere near what you suggest it is. Weird, right? Not sure how TTK's pet jellyfish derives average from I see a lotta, but hey, the point remains that teacher's poverty claims are questionable--at best. Especially given their 180+ a few schedule. As to Ivan's more thoughtful response, well, I agree it's total bullshit that a salary sort for, say, Seattle SD reveals pages of admin jobs (non-union, even!) that are pulling down more than the state Governor. Not to mention the guaranteed pension and health benefits that the common folk in the private sector no longer enjoy... wait, i though I was tvash's jellyfish?!? or was it lapdog? quite the menagerie that boy's putting together... good graph for showing the effect of unions on teacher pay - note the sunny union-busting glory that is the south - the first state i taught in, north carolina, was the worst paying state in the nation when i started - i see things haven't improved much - makes sense that some of the folks i knew from back then are still living w/ their parents - now there's an american dream come true! admins and paraprofesionals have unions too, actually, though the admin one is weird, given that in many districts it's made out of only a handful of members- their union has way more clout then mine as you correctly noted - way higher pay, much better benefits it sucks that so many private sector jobs have non-existent or shitty benefits - isn't improving their lot a better solution than dragging public employees down into the same swamp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Are there teachers who don't deserve the $19.40/hour salary I get? Sure there are, but they are the minority in my building. ditto. in my 15 years i've seen only a handful of crap teachers, and they all made quick exits as the job eats you alive when you're a cheap hack at it. my favorite was "big mama" perez, the spanish teacher that got hired at the inner-city school i was at - the position had been open for weeks unfilled 'cuz no god-fearing 'merican had the balls to wander into that environment unarmed - so the school hired a guy from mexico around christmas, his only qualifications being that he spoke spanish and had a heartbeat - after two weeks he started calling in sick - the first week he left "big mama's house II" as his sub plan - the second week he left the same movie...still in english - the third week he stopped leaving anything and we never saw him again.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Do I want a pay raise? No. i'm not screaming for one either, but as the both of us are maxed out on the pay scale, every year the COLA goes unfunded we instead get the very opposite. our pay's decreased 16% in real dollars since the legislature started ignoring the law... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 wait, i though I was tvash's jellyfish?!? or was it lapdog? quite the menagerie that boy's putting together... good graph for showing the effect of unions on teacher pay - note the sunny union-busting glory that is the south - the first state i taught in, north carolina, was the worst paying state in the nation when i started - i see things haven't improved much - makes sense that some of the folks i knew from back then are still living w/ their parents - now there's an american dream come true! admins and paraprofesionals have unions too, actually, though the admin one is weird, given that in many districts it's made out of only a handful of members- their union has way more clout then mine as you correctly noted - way higher pay, much better benefits it sucks that so many private sector jobs have non-existent or shitty benefits - isn't improving their lot a better solution than dragging public employees down into the same swamp? Naw, Rob's always been the lapdog/jellyfish. You're the ropegun, apologist, and, far too often IMO, password provider during his increasingly-frequent off-his-meds bannination periods. Not sure your thesis re unions and average pay by state is valid. Could be, but we'd have to superimpose COLAs by state for a true picture. In any event, the argument that collective bargaining stands in the way of more equitable pay-for-performance (and in-demand subject matter skills) seems pretty strong, IMO. Wisconsin will provide a laboratory in the years ahead, so we'll have to wait and see. As for your "isn't improving their lot a better solution than dragging public employees down into the same swamp" argument, well, I couldn't agree more. This is why we need to un-elect the social theorist you & yours put in office, and replace him with someone who understands economics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Never underestimate a jellyfish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 certainly the humble box-jellyfish is no fellow to trifle w/... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Only a fool would. One who wishes to be urinated on. I rest my case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 So, Apologist Ropegun Running Dog, it's probably not to early to take a brief break from WillYouBeMyFriend?Space and start talking about some spring training weekends. These offsets are looking' aaaaawful shiny… Wknd Mar 8, 13, 22nd still free…txt me, baby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.