ScottP Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Ironically, I used to be pretty anti-bolt when I first started climbing years ago and it's Raindawg's attitude that has directly led me to viewing bolts from a more favorable perspective. This is such an adolescent mindset. It's cool until the dweebs begin to like it, then it's not so cool. pssh, your mom is adolescent. Haven't you ever noticed somebody doing something retarded, and then realized, "wait, I do that too!" and then been disgusted and tried to become someone better? You must have been born perfect No, I haven't, and no, I wasn't. I don't see how not letting others actions determine my convictions makes me perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 I don't see how not letting others actions determine my convictions makes me perfect. You're kidding yourself if you think other people's actions don't influence your convictions. At least, I hope so! Scary. Cheers tho! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryographer Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Geez, this thing is still going? Vert. Thanks for the anchors! Sorry you have to be the whipping boy for all those clinging to the good 'ol days. Especially when you took the time (away from climbing) to do a community service, or at least what you thought was. I've always thought the best climbing was below there anyway. Since you're already getting flack, head on over to Index and get rid of that funky anchor on Toxic. That'll open up a whole new can of worms. bwahahhaahhaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimmo Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 We all aspire to convenience. It's built into our DNA. We wish to be comfortable and have things go our way. Even in an activity like climbing, which by its nature places us into uncomfortable situations, we still want these discomforts mitigated by a variety of strategies. Of course we do: climbing is after all a past-time, a hobby, a game in the end. How trivial do we want this game to be? Based on the responses in this thread, it's evident this question is answered very differently by different people. Some want the game to be very easy and convenient. Why fiddle around with nuts and cams in cracks, and then have to climb 4th class, when a couple of bolts would allow one to descend right away after the "money shot"? I mean, isn't Brass Balls really about the 40 feet of climbing where you leave the ledge, ascend more or less vertically with certain subjective difficulties encountered, and arrive at a "comfortable" stance? This is where, after fucking the whore, I should get to smoke a cigarette and enjoy. Brass Balls, be my whore. I'll pay you, with my soul, if you'll simply let me have my way with you. Don't give me this bullshit about having to fuck 4th class ledges after I come. You are my aim, and after I am done with you, I need to leave quickly to get back to my wife and children. But when I want you, be my whore. I'll pay you, with my soul. The first ascensionists of Brass Balls had the audacity, sure, to give it a name. A silly name at that. But they didn't have the audacity to slap stainless steel into the flank of the rock because they couldn't be "inconvenienced" by an additional 40 feet of no-glory 4th class scrambling. Climbing is continually distilled into whatever most people think is its essence. With these bolts, which I think everyone agrees are about "convenience", this distillation is towards a mind set that sees nothing deeper in climbing than "getting off". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummerchine Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Please keep in mind all, reasonable minds can differ. So can unreasonable minds. I have seen both examples posted on this thread. Personally, I can see both sides of this argument. The "bolts are bad, don't place them" to "anything goes". I fall in the middle with the overwhelming majority. But I deeply respect and appreciate everyone's opinion, just as long as they are not being rude or degrading...which some here are. "Convenience Bolts"...if that's what you want to call them...are a way of the world at virtually every crag these days. Don't get me wrong...I agree, bolts should never be added to climbs on the route, especially when crack protection is available. But most climbers...myself included...want to be able to safely and easily rappel from routes. Which is why we all find wonderful bolted rap stations at belays around the world...placed with the time and expense of numerous Good Samaritans that I BOW DOWN too! Let's just look at WA: Just about every route at Index would be a great place to start. Sure, you can argue that there should be no bolted rap stations and every climber who climbs anything should go all the way to the top of either the lower or upper town wall and hike off. How many do that? Rap anchors make climbing safer, far more time and climber efficient, letting us all spend the precious free time we have pursuing the sport we love. It's true...I don't have the time or inclination to climb dangerous choss. And yes, I am blessed with a wonderful family that I want and need to get back home too. So for me...and the overwhelming majority of climbers around the world... Rap stations are an acceptable trade-off. It gets us quickly and safely off of climbs...and frees them up for others, and for us to do more good climbing. Just like the roads and cars we drive to actually get to the crags. I do feel awful for those who dislike roads and bolted rap stations...I have no suggestion other than not using them. Walk to the crag and don't use the bolts...sorry, that was being a bit of a smartass, but at some level you just gotta chill and accept what the majority deems appropriate. Heck, with a great attitude you will see the advantages! I mean, do you really want to walk to the crag and climb choss? That is my strong opinion...and I respect the opinion of most all! Sorry, but a few of you are too rude and obnoxious to respect... Respectfully, Tom Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirkW Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 This climb sounds sweet! I'm gonna hafta make my way north and get ON that thing. Now, where did I put my nuts? It's been a while since they've been used Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 ...but at some level you just gotta chill and accept what the majority deems appropriate. Heck, with a great attitude you will see the advantages! Are you serious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancegranite Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I used to spend quite a bit of time, effort and money bringing back old Leavenworth routes from the dirt so that the climbing public may enjoy them once again. This is called crag stewardship and it's a lot of fun. You walk around and clean up climber trash, shore up climber paths from erosion, dust off several hundred feet of climber crack and face climbing, that sort of thing. Strangely, this work never seemed to appeal to the serious climbers who obviously feel so strongly about climbing's moral decline. You mostly just walked right past us on the way to more important matters. After all, you are on your day off from work, and there's serious climbing afoot. Who would actually want to work instead of climb? You passed me by and issued your serious judgement when just out of earshot. Suddenly after the fact all of a sudden the serious climbers are all up in arms about something or another. An offense to the memory of the past has occurred. Somebody has done something and now we need to issue a verdict! Guess what? Nobody cares about people who don't step up and roll up their sleeves. You walked right on by and never lifted a finger. Much love to the guys out there doing the good work. Russ Ricketts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telemarker Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I used to spend quite a bit of time, effort and money bringing back old Leavenworth routes from the dirt so that the climbing public may enjoy them once again. This is called crag stewardship and it's a lot of fun. You walk around and clean up climber trash, shore up climber paths from erosion, dust off several hundred feet of climber crack and face climbing, that sort of thing. Strangely, this work never seemed to appeal to the serious climbers who obviously feel so strongly about climbing's moral decline. You mostly just walked right past us on the way to more important matters. After all, you are on your day off from work, and there's serious climbing afoot. Who would actually want to work instead of climb? You passed me by and issued your serious judgement when just out of earshot. Suddenly after the fact all of a sudden the serious climbers are all up in arms about something or another. An offense to the memory of the past has occurred. Somebody has done something and now we need to issue a verdict! Guess what? Nobody cares about people who don't step up and roll up their sleeves. You walked right on by and never lifted a finger. Much love to the guys out there doing the good work. Russ Ricketts Thank you Russ. The work you, Ben and others have done on Lower Castle Rock has been much appreciated, particularly by me every evening after work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancegranite Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Thanks, but I can hardly call myself a climber, so send the thank you card to the secret cragsmen, they are still relevant, unlike me. I never put up very many new routes, instead put a ton of time on the old routes our forefathers. The lines they put up were great and deserve more than to fade away. I support the next generation carrying on the service, new routes or old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) I used to spend quite a bit of time, effort and money bringing back old Leavenworth routes from the dirt so that the climbing public may enjoy them once again. This is called crag stewardship and it's a lot of fun. You walk around and clean up climber trash, shore up climber paths from erosion, dust off several hundred feet of climber crack and face climbing, that sort of thing. Strangely, this work never seemed to appeal to the serious climbers who obviously feel so strongly about climbing's moral decline. You mostly just walked right past us on the way to more important matters. After all, you are on your day off from work, and there's serious climbing afoot. Who would actually want to work instead of climb? You passed me by and issued your serious judgement when just out of earshot. Suddenly after the fact all of a sudden the serious climbers are all up in arms about something or another. An offense to the memory of the past has occurred. Somebody has done something and now we need to issue a verdict! Guess what? Nobody cares about people who don't step up and roll up their sleeves. You walked right on by and never lifted a finger. Much love to the guys out there doing the good work. Russ Ricketts It is interesting to listen to climbers complain about a garbagy fire ring rather than spend far less time just erasing it. I don't understand how any fire rings in, say, the Icicle cragging areas persist for long enough for anyone to notice them. If local climbers really cared as much as they say they do - they'd be erased on sight as a standard part of every trip. That's what we do - it may take all of a half an hour for a really big fire ring, but usually quite a bit less time for two motivated individuals. But no, let's post it on FB and talk about it! We also burn and/or cover TP sculptures left by previous artists. This is the ultimate FUCK YOU to future visitors in my book - other than the party sized pile of trash. I'm not sure what species raised these people, but newsflash: nobody wants to admire your poo pile. Spend the extra two minutes and take care of bidness the right way. Past that, I'll admit I'm more of a none-fair weather trail maintenance person (I try to target days that are completely useless for anything else). Among me pals, however, constant and unsung efforts as you've described are held with the highest esteem and affection. The Dtown boys immediately come to mind. A new 5.13 is impressive at some purely theoretical level, but that's not what wins our love and appreciation. That's not to say that true unsung stewardship and amazing climbing talent do not and cannot coexist in a single human, of course. Edited October 22, 2013 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I drove to castle on the plowed/paved convenience road, parked In the convenience lot, hiked the convenience trail, did not slip on the new erosion-resistant "convenient steps", did "convenience pruning" of a fallen snag, opened up my "convenience guidebook" to orient myself, used these convenient new things called cams to climb pitches conveniently cleaned of grass and dirt but I object to a second anchor on jello tower, where 7 separate pitches all end, because I reject changes to the castle rock experience which add convenience not available way back when... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I drove to castle on the plowed/paved convenience road, parked In the convenience lot, hiked the convenience trail, did not slip on the new erosion-resistant "convenient steps", did "convenience pruning" of a fallen snag, opened up my "convenience guidebook" to orient myself, used these convenient new things called cams to climb pitches conveniently cleaned of grass and dirt but I object to a second anchor on jello tower, where 7 separate pitches all end, because I reject changes to the castle rock experience which add convenience not available way back when... Oh...O.K.....So I guess if convenience is the norm, why not add an exciting Via Ferrata to the mix for the convenience of those who don't want to deal with the nuisance of ropes, or how about a sales kiosk on Logger's Ledge with some guidebooks, webbing, along with some snacks to be consumed at the picnic table on top? Your perspective can be used to justify anything. Time to dust off this favorite!: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 or how about a sales kiosk on Logger's Ledge with some guidebooks, webbing, along with some snacks to be consumed at the picnic table on top? Nice. I love snacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 What kind of snacks do you think they'd have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryographer Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 The webbing sales won't be necessary, all the anchors will be bolted... =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) A slippery slope argument is more compelling with supporting analogous data. The government spies on international communications, so we may suspect that they spy on domestic ones as well. In a data vacuum, such a tactic quickly becomes ridiculous. In a country of 300 million, we have zero via ferrata routes on public lands. I don't believe there has been any attempts to put any up, even. The US doesn't manage its lands the same way Europe does, and there is little indication that that philosophy, or the robust laws that put it into action, will change any time soon. So too, the 'single criterion' debate tactic used so commonly on forums like this. 'All climbers care about is convenience' is the one being used here. The debater then paints a future world where this is true - hotdog stands on top of El Cap, whatever. The problem with this tactic, of course, is that the single criterion model doesn't describe what is necessarily a much more complex reality. It also ignores any rule of law the would prevent such a world from coming into being. Unlike the slippery slope argument, which can make sense when supported by relevant analogous data, the 'single criterion' argument seldom produces anything other than one dimensional cartoon outcomes that can't actually happen. While these two tactics are often used in an attempt to make one's opponent appear wrong, dishonest, or ignorant, they invariably backfire when presented to an informed, critical audience such as this one. Politicians often combine these two flawed forms of argument to pump up an audience that is self-selected for their propensity to agree, regardless of what they are asked to agree with. In that non-critical, uninformed environment, these two tactics can be effective at gaining support. Edited October 24, 2013 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BirdDog Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I drove to castle on the plowed/paved convenience road, parked In the convenience lot, hiked the convenience trail, did not slip on the new erosion-resistant "convenient steps", did "convenience pruning" of a fallen snag, opened up my "convenience guidebook" to orient myself, used these convenient new things called cams to climb pitches conveniently cleaned of grass and dirt but I object to a second anchor on jello tower, where 7 separate pitches all end, because I reject changes to the castle rock experience which add convenience not available way back when... Well said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Shitty tat-and-tinfoil-hanger anchors atop well-protected climbs are nothing but faux danger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummerchine Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Ya Blake...right on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCKY Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 I drove to castle on the plowed/paved convenience road, parked In the convenience lot, hiked the convenience trail, did not slip on the new erosion-resistant "convenient steps", did "convenience pruning" of a fallen snag, opened up my "convenience guidebook" to orient myself, used these convenient new things called cams to climb pitches conveniently cleaned of grass and dirt but I object to a second anchor on jello tower, where 7 separate pitches all end, because I reject changes to the castle rock experience which add convenience not available way back when... So Blake climbs and Raindawg aka Don Ryan sprays ....ummmm way to put it in perspective Blake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 I drove to castle on the plowed/paved convenience road, parked In the convenience lot, hiked the convenience trail, did not slip on the new erosion-resistant "convenient steps", did "convenience pruning" of a fallen snag, opened up my "convenience guidebook" to orient myself, used these convenient new things called cams to climb pitches conveniently cleaned of grass and dirt but I object to a second anchor on jello tower, where 7 separate pitches all end, because I reject changes to the castle rock experience which add convenience not available way back when... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirkW Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 (edited) I drove to castle on the plowed/paved convenience road, parked In the convenience lot, hiked the convenience trail, did not slip on the new erosion-resistant "convenient steps", did "convenience pruning" of a fallen snag, opened up my "convenience guidebook" to orient myself, used these convenient new things called cams to climb pitches conveniently cleaned of grass and dirt but I object to a second anchor on jello tower, where 7 separate pitches all end, because I reject changes to the castle rock experience which add convenience not available way back when... So Blake climbs and Raindawg aka Don Ryan sprays ....ummmm way to put it in perspective Blake Oh. I see. So climbing is an activity that allows you to make land use decisions but being a bird watcher, hiker, hunter, fungus picker, photographer, bike rider, or general wilderness loafer doesn't. Thank you for clearing that up. There is a storm coming that climbers don't seem to have a clue about. Enjoy your bolts while you can and keep acting like your needs supersede that of every other user group. Good luck with that. Edited October 25, 2013 by KirkW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 storms can blow both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 WTF is in the water down there, anyway? Jaysus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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