ivan Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 If they are playing the 'pay me to stop' game, which it seems they are, then testing a nuke every now and then could be a profitable venture. It seems like it has been in the past. In addition, it is a powerful 'do not fuck with me' message. The threat, of course, is not that N Korea will go toe to toe with America in a strategic nukular exchange. Rather, any conflict with N Korea will put America at odds with China, put S Korea at risk of bombardment from 70,000 artillery pieces, or increase that risk that N Korean missiles and bomb materials will magically find their way into the hands of Da Evil Doers. So, yes, if you're a resource poor, inefficient, totalitarian regime who wants to keep the lid on your closed society, blowing off a mini-nuke now and then to remind the world that you're still capable of farting in its closet is perfectly rational...if you've got the leverage do pull it off. N Korea clearly does. 'Rational' is from the regime's standpoint, of course. The regime certainly isn't crazy - they've pulled off a 60+ year long remake of 1984 - quite an accomplishment really, and one no that few, if any, regimes have even come close to topping. So, no, I'm not on the 'LIKE IF YOU'RE OUTRAGED' wagon regarding N Korea's third fireworks display (OUTRAGEOUS!!!). Generalize that to mean I fully support the N Korean regime, with all its civil rights abuses, as needed. well put - seems quite rational to me, albeit not my cup of tea - the only way you maitain a dictatorship is by doing crazy shit, so crazy becomes only logical all despotisms eventually crumble though, so now, next week, or next century, n korea will get to shake the magic 8-ball of revolution - i suspect that, like most cultures, they'll return to what's familiar and comfortable though, and that the result won't be ragingly dissimiliar from the current regime they tolerate. revolutions ain't good for much more than requiring cartographers to occasionally rename the shit on their maps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 An apt piece from the NYT yesterday, outlining the threat of a uranium-producing NK, and our completely ineffective tactic of isolation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Speaking of North Korea, I read a couple of good books on the place not too long ago: ....... and "Escape from Camp 14" by Blaine Harden. THAT, was a grim read. Basically on the verge of starving - always - and the constant betrayal by friends and family because they were so scared. And that is just a peak behind the curtain. No, that country's rulers are wacked. If you can stomach it, you should read "Nothing to Envy," as well. It read like a dystopian sci-fi novel, but was many times as horrifying for being real. There were quite a few elements in the stories that were equally captivating and awful at the same time, but the most striking parts of the individual stories they collected were individual people's recollections of their perceptions when the whole thing started to unravel - starving children being sent to school despite the fact that they're incapable of doing anything other than mutely slumping over in their desks, teachers going on with their lessons in front of ever-dwindling numbers of comatose children, regiments of textile workers assembling at plants despite the fact that the raw materials were no longer arriving and the plants had no power, etc, etc, etc. Since the stories are taken from defectors who survived the ordeal you also get to read about the changes in outlook and behavior that allowed them to survive and eventually get out, which is also pretty fascinating. The spontaneous emergence of markets, prices, and exchange dynamics that attenuated the suffering and allowed people who would have otherwise starved to death to survive - even amongst people who had nothing but their instincts to guide them - was also something I took a personal interest in, but that's a theme that I expect most participants in this forum to be either disinterested in or actively hostile to so I'd recommend ignoring that aspect of the book if you happen to be reading this and want to continue believing that all of the suffering you've read ensued because Kim Il Sung and co got the the technical details of communism wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 so I'd recommend ignoring that aspect of the book if you happen to be reading this and want to continue believing that all of the suffering you've read ensued because Kim Il Sung and co got the the technical details of communism wrong. LOL! You really think "most participants of this forum" are actually communists who think North Korea just didn't "get it right?" Too funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 An apt piece from the NYT yesterday, outlining the threat of a uranium-producing NK, and our completely ineffective tactic of isolation Ineffective compared to what? It's hard to read more than a few pages into any book on North Korea and conclude that North Korea's isolation from the rest of the world is absolutely deliberate and almost completely self-imposed. They'll gladly continue to take whatever they can beg, steal, extort, or counterfeit away from the rest of the world but there's zero indication that they're interested in the kind of engagement with the rest of the world that would lead to a meaningful change in the country's internal dynamics, which is what it would take to bring about any real change in their external relationships with the rest of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 so I'd recommend ignoring that aspect of the book if you happen to be reading this and want to continue believing that all of the suffering you've read ensued because Kim Il Sung and co got the the technical details of communism wrong. LOL! You really think "most participants of this forum" are actually communists who think North Korea just didn't "get it right?" Too funny. Nope - just people who have an instinctive hostility to and suspicion of markets and lingering sympathy towards the idea that the vast litany of desolation and suffering under communist regimes doesn't represent a definitive verdict on that mode of collectivism. In your case - I don't actually detect much in the way of an informed understanding of either markets or collectivism, or history, or an interest in any of the above so I suspect that all you'd take away from the book is "LOL," so I'd recommend staying away from it and recycling quips here instead. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 An apt piece from the NYT yesterday, outlining the threat of a uranium-producing NK, and our completely ineffective tactic of isolation Ineffective compared to what? Ineffective as compared to something that would have worked. Or are you saying our policy has actually been efficacious and that I'm slandering it? I question if our strategy has even been better than having just done nothing. I'm sure you can tell me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 so I'd recommend ignoring that aspect of the book if you happen to be reading this and want to continue believing that all of the suffering you've read ensued because Kim Il Sung and co got the the technical details of communism wrong. LOL! You really think "most participants of this forum" are actually communists who think North Korea just didn't "get it right?" Too funny. Nope - just people who have an instinctive hostility to and suspicion of markets and lingering sympathy towards the idea that the vast litany of desolation and suffering under communist regimes doesn't represent a definitive verdict on that mode of collectivism. In your case - I don't actually detect much in the way of an informed understanding of either markets or collectivism, or history, or an interest in any of the above so I suspect that all you'd take away from the book is "LOL," so I'd recommend staying away from it and recycling quips here instead. LOL. We must be on different forums, I haven't seen very much support of communism on this one. And let's not make it about me, I was wondering why you hold "most participants in this forum" in such intellectual disregard as to make such broadly sweeping statements about people whom simply disagree with your political bent towards vaguely Randian economics. It must be because you're such an intellectual. But it *is* hilarious how, despite trying to appear "above it all," you just end up just flinging poo like the rest of us. It's delicious! LOL indeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 well there is "suspicion" of the markets for good reason. but the suspicion is not necessarily of the markets themselves, but some of the people operating in them at a high level. Capitalist crooks have taken this country to the cleaners many, many times...and they just seem to be getting better at it. Central the problem with either system is that they are fallible because humans run them...and perhaps that neither system will ever be executed from a purist's perspective...so you really can't say but you can speculate. From an intellectual standpoint...well who cares about the intellectual standpoint is. From a practical standpoint, a healthy mix of capitalism and socialism seems to be working the best...as it has for some time here. The argument is and will continue to be "what is the right mix"...not how can we become the most awesomist communists evar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 well there is "suspicion" of the markets for good reason. but the suspicion is not necessarily of the markets themselves, but some of the people operating in them at a high level. Capitalist crooks have taken this country to the cleaners many, many times...and they just seem to be getting better at it. Central the problem with either system is that they are fallible because humans run them...and perhaps that neither system will ever be executed from a purist's perspective...so you really can't say but you can speculate. From an intellectual standpoint...well who cares about the intellectual standpoint is. From a practical standpoint, a healthy mix of capitalism and socialism seems to be working the best...as it has for some time here. The argument is and will continue to be "what is the right mix"...not how can we become the most awesomist communists evar. Fuckkn commie, you probably don't even read books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) The hairless monkey loves a good backstory. The less real information a monkey has, the more baroque the backstory. This is how one gets from questioning the premise and sincerity of outrage after N Korea's 3rd nuclear test to CC.com posters giving the rotting corpse of Stalin regular blowjobs. Mostly, folks here rail against that which they perceive offends them. Moochers are a big Bogie Man for the Right, for example. "I didn't bootstrap my self up from slavery to sit and watch while..." The process of generalization and targeting then begins. By the end of the process, some CC poster who makes a pretty limited observation is *actually* using his trust fund to finance an international program of shooting babies in the face and gleefully selling the leftovers to the Asian aphrodisiac industry. It's human nature. Some who fancy themselves above the milieu might think they're immune from this primal trait - to the even greater amusement of their observers. Mostly, though, its just simple tit for tat. Your online nemesis thinks its cold? You slam the thermostat off. Too warm? You slam it to 11. The reality is, of course, that few posters here really know each other at all. For example, I know four sprayers personally - I've met a handful of others on occasion. That's my reality, anyway. I find it helpful to keep that reality in mind. Edited February 14, 2013 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Thank god we even have Communism, otherwise how would JayB and others like him malign their opponents? I'm really more of a fellow traveler than a full-blown commie, tho. But I definitely hate markets!!!! Oh, hey -- remember when Bush had to abandon free market principles to save the free market? LOL anyway, life is hilarious. I wish JayB would post again, tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Reading leads to book learnin, which results in ideas, which result in communism. The problem with gubermint is that it needs to be privatized better. too many rules are preventing lobby access to government officials, and this resulted in the recent financial collapse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Wouldn't a free market be inherently communist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 anyway, life is hilarious. I wish JayB would post again, tho Finger cramps, perhaps. Not enough electrolytes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 anyway, life is hilarious. I wish JayB would post again, tho Perhaps he feels it's wasted effort. I don't blame him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 That blame esta occupado, I'd wager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 anyway, life is hilarious. I wish JayB would post again, tho Perhaps he feels it's wasted effort. I don't blame him. That's a shame. But I suppose that's how life would feel if you insisted everyone else was "wrong" and felt disappointment at your failure to convert them. Personally, I figure we all have our heads up our asses, so I don't let it bother me, comrade the kind of shit we all come on here and pontificate about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 anyway, life is hilarious. I wish JayB would post again, tho Perhaps he feels it's wasted effort. I don't blame him. That's a shame. But I suppose that's how life would feel if you insisted everyone else was "wrong" and felt disappointment at your failure to convert them. Personally, I figure we all have our heads up our asses, so I don't let it bother me, comrade the kind of shit we all come on here and pontificate about? all you do is snipe and mock Jay is a pretty reasonable guy and the last one to just dismiss others' opinions out of hand. But hey, demonize all you want - it's easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 all you do is snipe and mock Jay is a pretty reasonable guy and the last one to just dismiss others' opinions out of hand. But hey, demonize all you want - it's easier. That's not true, I do other stuff, too. I usually offer up a serious opinion on every topic, which is usually quite reasonable (in my opinion, of course). But of course, as you say, it's a bit of a wasted effort, isn't it? Sniping and mocking is better suited to pointless conversation. I'm sure JayB is a reasonable guy -- nearly everyone here is. But even reasonable guys make retarded comments, I'm living proof of that. For the record, I'm not demonizing him, I'm making fun of him. There is a difference, isn't there? The demonizing was when he called "most participants of this forum" communists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) Now I don't pretend to know Rob as well as you do, KKK - but he often posts clear opinions on a variety of subjects, and, while he is naturally sarcastic (a trait which is seldom appreciated by those who don't quite get the joke) he seems pretty tame over all. I know his opinions on complex matters may not be as well thought out or stated as your own, but he's trying. With enough positive examples from folks like you, he'll get there eventually. But hey, I wouldn't know, really. Haven't catalogued and analyzed his posts as you have. Oh, and I'm selling something you might be interested in: Apollo projection screen - $80 Edited February 14, 2013 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 don't be such a capitalist pig. give the projector to the collective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 or whatever the hell it is. point being, that property is not yours. it is all of ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 and Rob is not a capitalist or a communist, he is a VeloFacist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Mock Jock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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