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Dane

"Chucky"? Local boys do good :)

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Nice, nice, superb!!!!! Way to do it.

 

Also, thanks for seeing a route where everybody else saw "ice is gone, winter is over" (same as always, or at least 13 years ago).

 

And for inspiration too. You guys rock!

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That looks like a suuuuper cool route. Please explain what makes it a WI7 versus a WI6+ or WI6X though, I have never really understood how people make those decisions. Will Gadd excluded, because everyone knows his WI10 route at Helmecken Falls is crock of crap. It's an M-climb and everyone knows it.

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According to Alpinist, this is the best US chart on grades I've seen:

 

http://www.alpinist.com/p/climbing_notes/grades

 

Considering this is Alpinist, I think these ratings are fairly accurate...

 

Their definition:

 

WI7: As above, but on thin poorly bonded ice or long, overhanging poorly adhered columns. Protection is impossible or very difficult to place and of dubious quality.

 

Note that they say WI8 is under discussion...

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Had the same question myself of Craig on the WI7 before I published. As well as the M8, Since we are talking 5.11+/5.12 in difficulty here.

 

Line was done free on the second ascent. Aided some the first ascent, when the fixed pro was originally placed.

 

I haven't seen this rig in person. and I am a big believer that it is hard to justify anything harder the WI4 in most places. Vertical is vertical after all. The typical Canadian arguement back to the early '80s by the guys doing the hardest ice in the world at the time.

 

But if you look at Nemisis (WI5/6?) and then the typically harder Curtain Call (WI6) as standards to the grade this looks a wee bit harder :) Add the fact that "Chucky" is in the WA desert and the temps and ice quality are never shall we say.."perfect"?

 

IMG_3072.jpeg

 

The first pitch looks like a longer and much nastier version of Hyalites' Home Field Advantage M7 WI5.

 

 

From discussions no one more excited about seeing a second free ascent than the guys who put this one up. I had suggested sand bagging the technical rating just to avoid this kind of discussion. After more converstaion they decided M8 WI7 was a sand bag!

 

None of these guys are posers. The X grade is real even with the "fixed" pro. You can figure out the rest

 

I'd wait for the 2nd free ascent party to voice their own opinion before questioning the grade.

 

Short drive from Vancouver :)

 

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That looks like a suuuuper cool route. Please explain what makes it a WI7 versus a WI6+ or WI6X though, I have never really understood how people make those decisions. Will Gadd excluded, because everyone knows his WI10 route at Helmecken Falls is crock of crap. It's an M-climb and everyone knows it.

 

How is something an M-climb if the tools and feet are constantly on ice and you have to swing for many placements? Watch the video of the first ascent of Wolverine (W11) and explain how that's mixed climbing. Because it has bolts and they do figure-4s?

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Dude, I've climbed it, kinda proves it aint M7. I didn't rate it, just quoting the Internet guide book :)

 

M6+/M7? Now we are cutting some short hairs aren't we John?

 

I thought you might be at Banks lake this morning. Mile marker 11.1? Instead of giving me shit on the Internet.

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Dude, I've climbed it, kinda proves it aint M7. I didn't rate it, just quoting the Internet guide book :)

 

M6+/M7? Now we are cutting some short hairs aren't we John?

 

I thought you might be at Banks lake this morning. Mile marker 11.1? Instead of giving me shit on the Internet.

 

:laf::wazup:

 

Not trying to bust your chops dude! Stoked you are giving some props to two great guys; I really enjoyed climbing with Jess in AK last October.

 

Just trying to avoid HFA falling victim to grade inflation :)

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I just compared it to some of the harder more dangerous lines I have done.

Running 4 laps - on lead - on Come and Get It M7 WI6+, doesn't even come close to

the physical and mental demand Chucky did. Heck, last year I soloed Come and Get It, and that even took less of a head.

I compare it to more difficult bolted mixed lines like Roman Candle, M8, and steepness of route is similar, but 'Chucky' has bigger moves, more tenuous feet and tool placements, and you are placing small kb's and peckers to keep u off the ground for the first 40 ft...

The second day, while gunning for the second ascent, Jess R took a whip and pulled a pin...

Sh*t, I would be stoked more than ANYONE, if someone got off the computer and sent it free for the second time. Partly cause another grade confirmation would be fabulous and let me know if I'm correct or just ignorant about more difficult ice/mixed climbing grades.

 

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"giving some props to two great guys"

 

Three. Scott Coldiron was there and climbed it as well.

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badass work, looks uber gnar. how does it compare to rocket boy?

 

john was just telling me that the guys who put up HFA were fukkin' wankers.

 

side question but the MTice forum is down, how hard is the extension to roman candle?

 

Buzzbomb is M10ish, right?

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How is something an M-climb if the tools and feet are constantly on ice and you have to swing for many placements? Watch the video of the first ascent of Wolverine (W11) and explain how that's mixed climbing. Because it has bolts and they do figure-4s?

 

I defer to the good doctor on this one.

 

Raphael Slawinski, probably the least self-aggrandizing climber out there, has never called Wolverine, Spray On/Spray On Top waterfall ice climbing. He's referred to Wolverine as Spray Ice 11 in his blog, which I think is his way of disagreeing with Tim and Will's grading of the route without making a big deal of it. Raphael has also said in his blog, "Spray On Top is one of the most unique, varied and fun mixed routes I have ever been on."

 

So the one guy who has climbed the routes at Helmecken who doesn't rely on press to eat refuses to grade the routes with a WI designation. That's a pretty good indication to me that they are not WI climbs. You know, aside from the fact that they are entirely bolt protected.

 

 

 

 

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I just compared it to some of the harder more dangerous lines I have done.

Running 4 laps - on lead - on Come and Get It M7 WI6+, doesn't even come close to

the physical and mental demand Chucky did. Heck, last year I soloed Come and Get It, and that even took less of a head.

I compare it to more difficult bolted mixed lines like Roman Candle, M8, and steepness of route is similar, but 'Chucky' has bigger moves, more tenuous feet and tool placements, and you are placing small kb's and peckers to keep u off the ground for the first 40 ft...

The second day, while gunning for the second ascent, Jess R took a whip and pulled a pin...

Sh*t, I would be stoked more than ANYONE, if someone got off the computer and sent it free for the second time. Partly cause another grade confirmation would be fabulous and let me know if I'm correct or just ignorant about more difficult ice/mixed climbing grades.

 

Thanks for that.

 

For what it is worth, I am not trying to be an internet tough guy here; that is a bad ass route and far beyond what I am capable of. I just think that the WI7 grade deserves some discussion. It is not common in Canada to give anything more than a 6+. I can think of two off the top of my head; the FA of Sea of Vapours WI7+ (which sounds more like WI6+R/X to me) and Rites of Passage WI8 (which ought to have been graded AI because an overhanging serac is, by definition, not a waterfall).

 

Edit - I recalled two more, Sans Blitz and M-16.

 

Edited by trainwreck

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I think it's great to discuss the WI7 rating. By definition, I believe WI6+X IS WI7. As far as physical demanding ice, I have climbed TONS of 5+ ice that was more physically demanding than a fair amount of WI6's. When u step up from 5+, I believe the grades reflect more danger rather than acrobatics. However, with that said, when you are forced to climb a 40 hanging, poorly adhered cicle because the rock to the left u were stemming on runs out of ANY feet, and u are only able to place one MARGINAL 10cm screw...roping out on a couple of the cicles I found myself 6-7 feet from the consistently overhanging rock...I'm not saying I'm the most credible on WI ratings, but Jess and I both believe that to b the craziest price of ice we've ever SEEN - anywhere, let alone climbed!

 

DAMN IT! Why won't someone just go repeat it already??

(Note for potential second ascentionists; climb the bottom section, throw a bail biner on the #2 pecker, then lower off while cleaning the lower two fixed pins, pull the rope, then pound em in on lead). Lol. I would have cleaned the whole route on rappell, but I was 20 ft out from the wall due to the overhanging nature of the climb. Plus we were in a hurry because it was a little warmer and didn't want the route to fall off and crush us like bugs.

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How is something an M-climb if the tools and feet are constantly on ice and you have to swing for many placements? Watch the video of the first ascent of Wolverine (W11) and explain how that's mixed climbing. Because it has bolts and they do figure-4s?

 

I defer to the good doctor on this one.

 

Raphael Slawinski, probably the least self-aggrandizing climber out there, has never called Wolverine, Spray On/Spray On Top waterfall ice climbing. He's referred to Wolverine as Spray Ice 11 in his blog, which I think is his way of disagreeing with Tim and Will's grading of the route without making a big deal of it. Raphael has also said in his blog, "Spray On Top is one of the most unique, varied and fun mixed routes I have ever been on."

 

Spray On Top involves several pitches of mixed climbing in addition to the pure spray ice sections. The grade given for its pitches is WI 10, WI 9, M6+,M8, M7, M9+, M6, M6.

 

So the one guy who has climbed the routes at Helmecken who doesn't rely on press to eat refuses to grade the routes with a WI designation. That's a pretty good indication to me that they are not WI climbs.

 

First of all, I don't think either Will Gadd or Tim Emmett need to beef up their resumes at this point to get media attention. I mean, if Wolverine were graded M11 with the exact same video, it would get just as much attention. I'd say the audiences at Reel Rock Tour for the Spray On film were more in awe of the climbing and location than the grade. And despite Raphael being one of my climbing heroes, I don't see how his view is worth any more (or less) than those of the other climbers who have put up big new routes at Helmcken. Whether you call it Spray Ice 11 or Water Ice 11, the implication of the grade is pretty clear.

 

You know, aside from the fact that they are entirely bolt protected.

 

Since when does the protection determine what medium is being climbed? Rock climbing = rock, mixed climbing = rock and ice or even just pure rock with ice tools, ice climbing = ice.

 

I think Will dealt with that aspect pretty clearly when he was asked about the grade of Spray On (the original 1 pitch version) and he made it pretty clear that he considered the physical difficulty of the climbing more relevant to the grade than the quality of protection.

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