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Dane

And I bet you thought Twight was dead.....

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damn straight - yet only the kwisatz haderach may quest to climb the olympus mons in the purest of styles!!! :)

 

I am the Kwisatz Haderach...

 

for you have taken the Gom Jabbar!

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Luckily my age and progress of climb/ski/drug innovations seem to be on a parallel course (lightweight gear, fatter skis, Vitamin I).

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I remember a conversation from long ago, before I left my home world, before the Shortening of the Way...

 

"Do you know of the Water of Life? The bile from the newborn worms of Arrakis."

 

"I have heard of it."

 

"It is very dangerous. The Bene Gesserit Sisterhood use it to see - within. There is a place...terrifying to us, to women. It is said a man will come - the Kwisatz Haderach. He will go where we cannot. Many men have tried."

 

"They tried and failed?"

 

"They tried and died."

 

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damn straight - yet only the kwisatz haderach may quest to climb the olympus mons in the purest of styles!!! :)

 

I am the Kwisatz Haderach...

sorry, i never could make it through the books, but i thought hte usa made-for-tv movie said somethign 'bout that not being true in the end? what would sting tell me today? :)

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sorry, i never could make it through the books,...

 

And yet you made it through Beowulf. Sicko.

there's a sliiiiight difference in length, senor - that, and for b-wulf, it's all about the translation - seamus hanney slapped enough lipstick on the pig to make it porkable for me i reckon...

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Writing inflammatory articles or making blanket statements to "make you think" is fucking annoying and lazy writing and only polarizes ideas btw.

 

of course, i do it all the time

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While I am surprised to find myself agreeing with much of what Marks says in this essay, I have a hard time with the concept of drug use as "cheating". Cheating implies that whatever the cheat is doing provides the cheat with a competitive advantage over the cheat's competitors. But if all of the cheat's significant competitors are engaging in the same practice, where's the competitive advantage?

I don't practice climbing as a competitive sport. I love the places climbing takes me, and the "big" routes I've done have taken me some memorable places. I don't give a rat's ass about performance records, or somebody else's climbing style. I climb for my own enjoyment, and prefer to climb with partners who aren't keeping score. I've never used O2 or diamox not because I think using them is cheating, but because I think using them is dangerous. Both predispose people to overextend themselves, and diamox has some hazardous side effects. I do, however use modern energy & recovery foods in the mountains.

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I found myself thinking about this today, sure sign of an interesting thread, and came to the conclusion that its not cheating if you disclose what you did. Cheating is about the lie, not the action. If I tell you I climbed Chain Reaction, then say I dogged it bolt to bolt and stick clipped my way up, I've qualified the nature of my ascent, and there is no cheating. Same diff with 02 or Diamox in the mountains. A more pure style always gets more respect, but that doesn't mean you're forbidden to try anything less.

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I found myself thinking about this today, sure sign of an interesting thread, and came to the conclusion that its not cheating if you disclose what you did. Cheating is about the lie, not the action. If I tell you I climbed Chain Reaction, then say I dogged it bolt to bolt and stick clipped my way up, I've qualified the nature of my ascent, and there is no cheating. Same diff with 02 or Diamox in the mountains. A more pure style always gets more respect, but that doesn't mean you're forbidden to try anything less.

 

perfecly said

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... Cheating is about the lie, not the action. I....

 

perfecly said

 

Ditto.

 

I'll add that cheating implies competition, and I don't see alpine climbing that way at all. Not surprised that Twight does. His note reminds me of certain over the hill climbers who decry bolts used on 5.14 routes because back in the day, when climbers were real men, they climbed 5.10 on goldline. :rolleyes: Now they lurk on the internet looking for bolting forums to dump their ideas. :fahq:

 

Live and let live. Climb and let climb. sickie

 

Besides, Twight hasn't said anything new that Messner didn't say, and live by, decades ago. :poke:

 

 

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When climbing at the level I'm at, which is basically slogging up moderates here and there, it doesn't seem to matter much what I do, or how I do it. Mountaineering is a selfish pursuit, inherently individualistic. Having that said, it does, and should, matter a lot to me, not only how I do it, but how I present it to anyone who shows interest. It is a point of honor. Mark's not saying I can't take diamox on the EBC Trek or hire a Nepali guide if I choose to do that. He's just saying I should be honest about it. What's not to agree with there?

 

Climbing at the level that Mark Twight enjoyed for a time gives him a totally different perspective than me, and I appreciate him sharing that perspective. Anything, or anyone that helps me remember the importance of personal integrity, and honor, I appreciate.

 

When taking on the biggest mountains, or the most extreme routes, seeking to push the limits of what is possible for humans in climbing or any sport the goal should be to do it clean. We know it can be done now. Whether it is supplemental O's or whatever, let's be honest, it's cheating... Without that dedication to honor the endeavor, wtf is the point?

 

I think the essay is a lot about what humans are doing to denigrate sport in general, and our sport... About the lack of honor in our culture...

 

If we're not careful, we end up without much real adventure in this life.

 

d

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Ah, if I had a tip jar for every time Dr. Doom's name came up on a long car ride or road trip to go climbing....

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Writing inflammatory articles or making blanket statements to "make you think" is fucking annoying and lazy writing and only polarizes ideas btw.

 

of course, i do it all the time

 

No actually you don't. If you did we would all know who you are. Who are you anyway :) Lazy? You don't really believe that, because if it was lazy, everyone would do it. Give Twight his due...you either love his shit or hate it and hate him. Likely few inbetween.

 

For fun name the three most influencial contributors to the NA alpine climbing community over the last 40 years. I have a short list. What is yours?

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just a hunch, but I think that Dane was meaning written contributions.

If I am right, then the list would be twight, beckey, greg child and jeff lowe. (not sure about including guidebook authors)

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I guess "influential contributor" didn't indicate writing to me but climbing. And I will stick with my list. Steve House and Alex Lowe were beasts in the mountains. Colin is on his way. And times have changed so much that a 40 yr. time parameter is hard to gauge.

Edited by matt_warfield

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I think most of us have bigger fish to fry in our lives than to worry about what the celebs are wearing these days.

 

Bright colors and Dynafits, of course.

 

14475.jpg

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