Blake Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Maybe I'm off base in this impression, but it seems like the folks pushing the standards at the NW crags /bouldering areas (heck, really just anyone climbing the harder 25% of routes) seldom go into the mountains, and most folks who like alpine climbing seem to scoff at "projecting" a route at a crag, let alone going bouldering. My non-scientific impression is that in other places, the folks putting up hard routes in Eldo or repeating the testpiece climbs along the area's crags are the same ones doing new routes in the Black Canyon, pulling down hard on the Hulk or the Diamond, etc. Is our alpine climbing just not inspiring enough to attract the really strong local climbers ro leave Little Si, the LTW, Equinox, China Bend, Smith, etc? Is the jump from 5.12s at Newhalem to 5.12s just up at the road @ WA Pass a bigger change in required skills than (say) going from hard routes Boulder's cragging scene to hard routes in RMNP? It's just a thought that struck me after seeing multiple folks working on 5.12-5.13 routes at Index yesterday, but not seeing many of those folks in the mountains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 My non-scientific impression is that in other places, the folks putting up hard routes in Eldo or repeating the testpiece climbs along the area's crags are the same ones doing new routes in the Black Canyon, pulling down hard on the Hulk or the Diamond, etc. are you sure that this population is really that large enough to say there is a difference between areas? example, if there are 5 people in WA doing what you are saying, are there hundreds doing this in other areas? I suspect that the people who could do that around here, moved over there. (with the except of a few notable people who decide to hang around) Justin Sjong is one of many examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmeyers Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I've noticed this too, but I never knew it was isolated to the NW. For me, well, it's not for lack of wanting to project alpine routes, that's for sure. I'd rather be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I've thought about this a lot (for whatever reason) in regards to PNW climbers. First, I think there are folks that get after both (you and the L-town crew being a good example). But many WA alpine routes are a pain in the ass to get to and there are a lot more factors to shut you down (mainly weather). Also, the season is short for both. So if you really want to do an alpine route, you may have to try a couple times and are too pooped to crag after or just don't have enough time for both. Other places you can climb year round and high quality difficult "alpine" climbs are much much easier access - and the cragging can be done year round. Kinda like ice climbing - maybe you are able to lead WI5 by the end of the season, but 9 months of off time put you back at square one. On the flip side, Washington has many more "mountaineering/scrambling" type routes to draw in many more non-technical "climbers" than areas like Colorado - where the aforementioned group is replaced by backpackers, and they don't make it on your radar. Since the "mountaineer" type in WA already own harness, helmets, whathaveyou, they have a small inclination to sometimes go cragging than do backpackers in other areas who don't have any technical gear. People like me are the other reason. They want to do hard alpine routes so badly that cragging seems like a waste of a beautiful day, and then wonder why they are forever stuck in 5.10+ mode. I've told myself so many time how much better of a climber I'd be if I cragged and projected more, and saved the alpine stoke for just a couple routes a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 so basically it's access and weather, plus a general lack of info about how good some of the hard alpine routes are. I bet those craggers never heard of that route you did on Baring, Blake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_warfield Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) The skills and fitness for different climbing goals are quite different. Doing intense 15 foot boulder problems or 100 foot sport routes or 4 pitch crag routes or El Cap in a day or aloine routes where you start at 2:00 a.m. and hike 10 miles before climbing, or the Himalaya where it is an endurance fest at altitude is all different. It is like a swimmer choosing their stroke and distance or track and field athletes deciding whether they are sprinters, long distance runners, or field performers. We as humans most often choose our strengths and what makes us happy. Edited October 2, 2012 by matt_warfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevino Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 In college I knew some people that climbed hard at the crags and boulders. Two reasons come to mind. One, its much easier to have all your friends around and watch you take whippers at the crag. Two, its much easier to walk a couple hundred feet with a crash pad and smoke a bowl, then to hump a pack full of climbing gear and clothes and smoke a bowl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I think part of it has to do with the fact that Washington has the best alpine climbing in the 48 states, but if you want to pursue serious technical rock or ice or technical alpine climbing you are going to head elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Gotta look to the Euros.... On a sidenote, Just to play Devil's advocate, one could argue that Cascade alpine climbing from May-October is dead. If the weather is good, the outcome is pretty much predicted once one reaches the 5.12+ standard and WI6 in the skill department. I think that where our range will really shine someday is on the big steep chossy faces that feature Scottish style mixed winter climbing from November to March. Take the scrappy low altitude north face of Mt. Snoqualmie for instance, it is a glimpse into the next chapter. All the May-October plumbs in our range were picked a long time ago and only table scraps have been left for quite awhile. Traverses and linkups are lame in my book. A lot of us go to places like Smith for the weekend as we know we'll get our ass handed to us and have to push through mental barriers in a different way. Or we get on flights to bigger ranges. That said, the Cascades are beautiful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Walking 10 miles to climb 6 pitches ain't for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wetslide Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 In college I knew some people that climbed hard at the crags and boulders. Two reasons come to mind. One, its much easier to have all your friends around and watch you take whippers at the crag. Two, its much easier to walk a couple hundred feet with a crash pad and smoke a bowl, then to hump a pack full of climbing gear and clothes and smoke a bowl. it all really does come down to when we smoke a bowl, huh Kevin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Walking 10 miles to climb 6 pitches ain't for everyone. Agreed. I've tired of bushwacking 9 hours to get to typical cascade 6 pitch ridge climb that I will solo in 12 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunger Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 there are still plums to be picked, but they are relatively high-hanging. as alluded to by others, training time is limited and therefore the ability to pursue the ideal of putting up hard alpine routes is governed by a trade-off. if you get tech-honed by spending available training time cragging, you'll not likely have the fitness and mental fortitude for required approaches and loose-rock/munge perseverance, respectively. and vice-versa, if you are out most weekends trying to pick so-called Cascade plums (aka "taking your gear for a walk" much the time), your technical rock-climbing standards will suffer. only the pros have time for both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Traverses and linkups are lame in my book. A lot of us go to places like Smith for the weekend as we know we'll get our ass handed to us and have to push through mental barriers in a different way. Or we get on flights to bigger ranges. That said, the Cascades are beautiful. Oh really? The Northern Picket Traverse? The Southern Picket Traverse? The Index Traverse? The Torment Forbidden Traverse? I'm contemplating one right now (traverse), really surprised no one has seen it. It's not that technical (5.8) but it's huge and "beta-minimum" But it's totally do-able and close to town and a short approach. I've been working the beta for a couple of years, have got the approach/descent down. I have one famous traverse first ascensionist lined up but it sounds like he's going to bail. I'm heading out tomorrow night to climb Wed and Thur, (solo if I have to) but I'm going to put up a post in "partners" here shortly. This could easily get into the AAJ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 plus Index is a pretty awesome place. why would you go any place else? ding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wetslide Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Hey Buckaroo. want a partner? PM me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 plus Index is a pretty awesome place. why would you go any place else? ding. stop that! they don't have those commercials out here, i forgot how much i hate that DING! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerwinl Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I come at this question from the perspective of a boulderer. I got into climbing because of bouldering, and still spend the majority of my time and training effort towards bouldering, its what I know, its where my friends are, it is relaxing. The majority of my bouldering buddies are anti-rope, My perception of their anti-rope mentality is the unwillingness to start a new activity and again be at the bottom of the food chain. Myself, I started to branch out into mountaineering, through glacial slogs, and slowly moving into the ranks of harder more technical alpine climbing. I am guessing this movement was somewhat aided by my lifelong skiing habbit, as soon as I moved into ski touring, it only seemed natural to make the progression and put alpine touring and climbing together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberdinka Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 My non-scientific impression is that in other places, the folks putting up hard routes in Eldo or repeating the testpiece climbs along the area's crags are the same ones doing new routes in the Black Canyon, pulling down hard on the Hulk or the Diamond, etc. How many people are projecting 5.12 in Boulder Canyon vs. establishing or climbing 5.12 in the Black? Is it really any different than here? Seems like the weather is to bleak around here for the diehards to stay put (a lot of strong climbers I knew BITD moved to CO) and the generally lengthy approaches (other than WA Pass) limit the interests of folks who focus on technical skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Walking 10 miles to climb 6 pitches ain't for everyone. and thank god for that, amirite? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Interesting conversation. 2 cents: though living in a mecca for alpine climbing Will Gadd continues to focus on the "cragging". I know other posters on this board can point to other climbers that are as Blake proposes "disconnected" Really... it's like any other sport. People gravitate to what challenges and inspires them. Go catch the latest Reel Rock film... the climbing (and even some "non" climbing) was varied but the passion, commitment and excitement of each climber was equal. Different strokes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Oh really? The Northern Picket Traverse? The Southern Picket Traverse? The Index Traverse? The Torment Forbidden Traverse? I'm contemplating one right now (traverse), really surprised no one has seen it. It's not that technical (5.8) but it's huge and "beta-minimum" But it's totally do-able and close to town and a short approach. I've been working the beta for a couple of years, have got the approach/descent down. I have one famous traverse first ascensionist lined up but it sounds like he's going to bail. I'm heading out tomorrow night to climb Wed and Thur, (solo if I have to) but I'm going to put up a post in "partners" here shortly. This could easily get into the AAJ... Wow. A new cutting adge 5.8 traverse. How will you deal with all of your new found fame and glory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boadman Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Maybe I'm off base in this impression, but it seems like the folks pushing the standards at the NW crags /bouldering areas (heck, really just anyone climbing the harder 25% of routes) seldom go into the mountains, and most folks who like alpine climbing seem to scoff at "projecting" a route at a crag, let alone going bouldering. My non-scientific impression is that in other places, the folks putting up hard routes in Eldo or repeating the testpiece climbs along the area's crags are the same ones doing new routes in the Black Canyon, pulling down hard on the Hulk or the Diamond, etc. Is our alpine climbing just not inspiring enough to attract the really strong local climbers ro leave Little Si, the LTW, Equinox, China Bend, Smith, etc? Is the jump from 5.12s at Newhalem to 5.12s just up at the road @ WA Pass a bigger change in required skills than (say) going from hard routes Boulder's cragging scene to hard routes in RMNP? It's just a thought that struck me after seeing multiple folks working on 5.12-5.13 routes at Index yesterday, but not seeing many of those folks in the mountains. I think there's also a demographic issue at work. A lot of the climbers in colorado moved there because they are climbers and moved there basically for the weather and because they want to climb all the time. Climbers that stay in the PNW generally have other facets of their life that are nearly as important to them as climbing, such as jobs and families. Speaking as a typical professional with a job and a family, I generally get about 1 day a week to climb outside during the season, sometimes no days at all. I only usually get about one weekend each summer where I can sneak off to the mountains and do an alpine route. So, I tend to focus on cragging, bouldering, and projecting harder stuff within an hour or so of Seattle and when I get a chance to do an alpine route I usually go do something classic that I haven't done before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telemarker Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 In my half witted opinion, WA's diversity of alpinism doesn't seem to be conducive to a single-minded focus on hard alpine rock climbing, though there are those who have made it happen. There's just too much distraction in WA as a result of our diverse recreational landscape. For instance, I would rank some of the hard alpine ski descents by the likes of the A Squad (Dan, Pete, Eric, Ryan, et.al....) as equal to a lot of the cutting edge alpine rock routes being put up. But then,like cragging, there are probably a lot of skilled, bold skiers with no interest in moving beyond The Slot. Interesting question Blake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 The pitch per hour ratio may be less in the mountains, but you don't get to piss on a goat's head or wake up with a wood rat on your chest at the crag quite as often. Cragging is a sport, alpinism is a journey, and love means never having to say you're sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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