eriknusanet Posted September 8, 2001 Share Posted September 8, 2001 On which Cascades glaciers is it common to travel without a rope (and when)? I've done a lot of rock climbing over the last 7 years but very little snow. Pretty much just an ascent of Mt. Rainier a few years back. After reading Andy Selters book on glacier travel I have a healthy fear of crevasse danger. But my climbing partners tell me that "right now all the crevasses are open, plus the crevasses on small glaciers are small" so you don't need to worry about them and don't need to rope up. This doesn't make sense to me so I'm hoping to get some more expert opinions from Cascade Climbers. I know that most of the crevasses are open now, but surely now ALL of them? And a small crevasse can still be 15 or 20 feet deep right? So, which glaciers are you travelling unroped on? And how much risk do you think you're taking? ------------------ erik@MyPhysicsLab.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted September 9, 2001 Share Posted September 9, 2001 Dude it matters not if they are open as it could be ice, wind,limited vision (snow), sloppy footing, or fatigue that lets you trip and fall into one. The fact is that they are there. To travel on them unroped is up to you but be careful. Even the ones you see can get you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climbing4fun2000 Posted September 9, 2001 Share Posted September 9, 2001 I traveled across one glacier unroped and will never do it again. We were on the descent (we roped up going up) and when we got to the crevasse field my partners decided since we only had about a quarter mile to camp we should just do it. We did, and I almost fell in while probing. It was a gaper, when the crust broke loose it was about 3-4 feet wide, and about 25-30 feet deep. Needless to say I shook my pant legs to clear the "new deposit" and we continued. I then cussed myself out for letting them talk me into something I knew was STUPID. Again, I will never cross a glacier unroped again as I feel fortunate to have survived that experience unharmed. Climbing is dangerous stuff and the best way to limit this danger is to do things right, and in my opinion that means roping up on glaciers. Caveman is right about even the ones you see can get you, so I prefer to tie one on. After all, it became a practice for a reason!! Have fun and stay safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted September 9, 2001 Share Posted September 9, 2001 Hey Erikn! Your climbing partners might otherwise be some smart and fun characters, BUT THEY'RE FULL OF CRAP ON THIS ONE! Regarding: "my climbing partners tell me that "right now all the crevasses are open, plus the crevasses on small glaciers are small" so you don't need to worry about them and don't need to rope up." Utter ignorance! Follow that advice regularly and you will end up dead. Every glacier is different and their melting and movement patterns are based on lots of variables. Yes, a lot of crevasses are readily visible this time of year, but you can't second guess the glaciers unless you are down to bare ice. And even then, they can be quite dangerous. Secondly, but no less important. Should you fall into one of these readily detectable crevasses and you are not roped up, you will probably be in BIG trouble and may very well die. Should you need to cross a snowbridge over one of these readily detectable crevasses and it collapses, or jump a crevasse and miss, or bad weather or visibility comes in while you're wandering unroped: same story. So do your pals a favor and ask them to read the basic "Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills" or that Andy Selters book. It ain't a joke. Stay alive, dude! - Dwayner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoBolt Posted September 9, 2001 Share Posted September 9, 2001 A fews years back my partner and I were decending Mt. Shuksan after a full day of late August climbing. We were about 50 meters from being off the glacier, had about 10 meters of rope slack between us and deaming of sucking down that cold one back at the truck when all of a sudden my next step cracked opened up a hidden crevasse. I quickly jumped forwards planting my axe and yelling to my partner who immediately launched into an arrest position as we watched all of our rope slack zip into the crevasse. Fortunately the crevasse was not wide enough to swallow one of us up. I assume that if either one us would have fallen in the crevasse other person would have never held the fall due to the rope slack. We both had failed to follow our basic safety rules: The climb is not over until you get home. Bottom line: I Always rope up for glacier travel. Live for the next climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eriknusanet Posted September 10, 2001 Author Share Posted September 10, 2001 Thanks for all your comments... I think I will be more careful in choice of partners and insist on Andy Selters-style glacier travel!!! ------------------ erik@MyPhysicsLab.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 Erik, As a guide I get this question often, and would like to answer your question in a more constructive way (rather than telling horror stories and spreading common misconceptions). The first thing you should understand about glaciers is the difference between a “wet” and a “dry” glacier. A wet glacier is a glacier (or section of a glacier) that still has seasonal snow on it. A dry glacier is a glacier (or section of a glacier) that has no seasonal snow on it (i.e., bare ice). The rules on when to rope up are purely a personal choice, but the following are generally agreed to by most professional climbers and/or guides: · If you are traveling on a “wet” glacier there is still a chance of hidden crevasses as well as the possibility to self arrest (in seasonal snow). There fore we rope up approximately 25-35 feet between climbers (this measurement applies to the cascades and may be different in other ranges depending on the size of crevasses). While traveling roped you should maintain a comfortably snug line between you and your partners (the rope should make a smiley face between you and your partner) · If you are traveling on “dry” glacier it is ok and often times more desirable and safer to travel un-roped. The reason being is that you can clearly see all the dangers, and you should for the most part be able to rely upon proper technique (i.e., French/German technique, and proper ice axe use) to avoid falling into a hole. The reason traveling roped can be dangerous on a dry glacier is that if one person falls, and there is no form of ice protection or a proper belay it is very unlikely that you will be able to self-arrest and hold the fall in ice. Often times you want the security or a rope on dry glacier (such as when you climb through a steep ice fall) but then it is best to use ice pro (screws, thread through, bollard, natural features) and proper belay techniques which will hold the max anticipated load. Last but not least, if you are unsure about how to properly rope up, rescue, use crampons and ice axe properly, and judge objective and subjective danger, I would highly recommend obtaining proper instruction from a trained professional. Reading books is a great start, but as you have learned from this dialogue leave many unanswered questions. Regards, and be safe. Tom Dancs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RStewbone Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 My wife and I were on the Prouty glacier in July. We opted to rope up in the warm conditions. Dianne took a short slide so we knew the snow was choss and after she stepped across the 'schrund I asked her to move up 40 feet sink a picket and put me on belay. As I stepped up and across everything collapsed and I dropped like a rock about 10 feet bobbing on a 9mm. and gasping to catch my breath realizing I was hanging about 15 feet above the bottom with a huge undercut lip in front of me and dripping black basalt about 10 feet in front of that.I grabbed the rope flailing like a beginner on toprope and tried to calm down. I was wearing crampons and felt a small ledge behind me and stood up on it to get off the rope. I located my axe and moved to where it narrowed and chimneyed to where I could throw a hand out and yell "I'm hanging above an abyss " and she replied "Well get your ass out of there!" and I rolled out the lower lip. Now this bloody crevasse was still between us and it didn't seem optional that she should downclimb to me so I sucked it up and got across this time. We conferred and agreed the best way was up and down the south side. We were still so sketched that as long as we could see that gaping gateway to the bowels of the mountain we used running belays. It was strange that the first time we belayed across a crevasse it save my ass. Had I not been roped I would have been so screwed and her to a long way from help. You can bet I don't feel stupid roping up now on seemingly benign territory in fact I put on my prusiks and have a picket and pulley handy. I had my chance to see the void and I will preach to whoever will heed it. Other than glaciers I don't rope to my partners unless we are using protection lest we all be dragged down together. [This message has been edited by RStewbone (edited 09-09-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 Beware of those sections where 'wet' and 'dry' conditions are interspersed. It was like that descending the Muir snowfield last weekend- firm icy ground, then soft snowy ground, all sort of mixed together. Aside from a few obvious open cracks, it appeared mostly safe, but I found a fairly deep crevasse that was hidden until I probed it out, quite low down on the snowfield. There was a fresh track of bootprints going across it both ways... scary. Also a few years ago, my partner punched into a deep crevasse in the Bugs. We'd been walking all day on dry glacial ice, and he stepped off into a softer snowy section, while I unconsciously detoured around it. His pack caught him, and we were able to get him out OK, but it could have been a lot worse. I think there are plenty of times that it's appropo to cross glaciers unroped, but you have to be all the more careful; there are always some crevasses that aren't open yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 If you travel unroped on a glacier you should assume you are soloing and take the same mindset as you would soloing on rock. If you are roped on a glacier however, you should evaluate whether conditions are self-arrestable or not. The recent accident on Baker seems to have resulted from the party being roped up but not having pro in. Under the circumstances there would have probably been less injuries if they hadn't been roped up, or NO injuries if they had had good pro in in addition to being roped up. Then again I wasn't on the mountain, maybe they couldn't get pro in, who am I to question them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 To piggy-back on Dru's comment, helmets are also essential. They are not just for rockfall. If you're caught in an uncontrolled slide (no pro, or pro failed, can't arrest) and lauch headfirst into a crevasse, ice is not very forgiving on the noggin. Same with rock bands (not the musical type). Think of it the same as riding a motorcycle - helmet and leathers may suck on a hot summer day, but should you take that unexpected spill it can literally save your hide/head/or even your life. Some may say it's uncomfortable or it looks stupid or there's nothing that gonna fall on your head so there's no need for one. Don't be fooled and don't let your ego rule over your appearance/comfort. Protect your most valuable body part... well, for some that might be their second most valuable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
none_dup1 Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 Hi crevasse trekkers, Climbing mag publishes and sells a great new book on glacier travel and crevasse rescue. It's called, strangely enough, The Illustrated Guide to Glacier Travel and Crevasse Rescue, by by Andy Tyson and Mike Clelland. Mike is the dude who does the great how-to cartoons in Climbing mag, and this book rocks for teaching the essentials of glacier travel. Even old hands will pick up a tip or two. Highly recommended. Order thru their website or at most local shops - $15. (I do NOT work for Climbing mag) http://www.climbing.com/books00.html Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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