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cosmicdebris

vantage toilet (at least as of June 20th..)

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so it was a real treat to have the port-a-john out at vantage this summer. its been nice not having to watch out for loads when walking through campsites. but apparently that was too good to be true. this weekend the toilet was sitting randomly on the side of the road halfway between silica road and the main camping area next to a camper..what gives? im wondering if it was moved so it would see less traffic. but now its almost out of walking distance even for the feathers crowd. anyways my concern isnt so much not have a nasty toilet to use but other weekend concert goers and campers who just poop wherever the hell they want.

Edited by cosmicdebris

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anyways my concern isnt so much not have a nasty toilet to use but other weekend concert goers and campers who just poop wherever the hell they want.

 

As if climbers don't do the same??? They also seem to have no problem leaving their metallic "poop" every few feet on any convenient piece of rock.

 

Vantage_attrocity_1_.jpg

(I may have missed a few.)

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anyways my concern isnt so much not have a nasty toilet to use but other weekend concert goers and campers who just poop wherever the hell they want.

 

As if climbers don't do the same??? They also seem to have no problem leaving their metallic "poop" every few feet on any convenient piece of rock.

 

Vantage_attrocity_1_.jpg

(I may have missed a few.)

 

You are fucking nuts!

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anyways my concern isnt so much not have a nasty toilet to use but other weekend concert goers and campers who just poop wherever the hell they want.

 

As if climbers don't do the same??? They also seem to have no problem leaving their metallic "poop" every few feet on any convenient piece of rock.

 

Vantage_attrocity_1_.jpg

(I may have missed a few.)

Yeah, I hate it when I get in my car and smell one of those little metal thingys stuck to the bottom of my shoe!

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anyways my concern isnt so much not have a nasty toilet to use but other weekend concert goers and campers who just poop wherever the hell they want.

 

As if climbers don't do the same??? They also seem to have no problem leaving their metallic "poop" every few feet on any convenient piece of rock.

 

Vantage_attrocity_1_.jpg

(I may have missed a few.)

 

You are f*&king nuts!

 

I guess you don't understand the concept, eh?

Leaving a mess? Get it?

At least the real "poop" maintains the possibility of being buried and disintegrating in relatively short order (or otherwise being responsibly disposed of) and thus leaving little trace of it having been there.

Vantage? Find some protectable cracks and top-rope the other stuff, instead of making a HUGE MESS.

 

 

 

 

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"Vantage? Find some protectable cracks and top-rope the other stuff"

 

Ha Ha Ha Ha!

 

In an effort to do just that, I climbed over on the Fugs Wall side. Trapeze wall in particular.

 

Once over there and climbing in Trad form as to live the proper way, I discovered why no one goes over and uses "protectable" cracks or "top ropes" (from what???). It is because the place is a freaking mess of unstable and pure scary choss.

I made my way up four Trad climbs on that side, with holds coming off under my feet and absolutely minimal reliable pro.

 

So yeah go ahead, forget the bolts just go ahead and climb your protectable cracks until the rock blows and then have your buddies scrape your guts off the talus.

 

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Bring on the bolting wars! WOOHOO!

 

If we're going to talk about which is worse, we should make sure to include in the mix the excessive square footage of paving. I mean, holy crap, talk about an environmental disaster. If you want to climb, you should have to hike in from the nearest river after having paddled in your cedar canoe made from a wind-felled tree and stone tools! Recreation is all or nothing in my book.

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On that note Shao - we should just forego any machined or engineered gear and use hemp rope on stone chocks.........

That is the ONLY true way. :)

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... Oh Ty... you're making me wet!... oh wait that's the rain. Just make sure you grow your hemp sustainably and weave by hand. I'll come over and we can make a party of it!

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Cosmic Debris,

 

The Washington Climbers Coalition has paid for a porta potty in Spring and Fall climbing seasons recently and is raising funds for a permanent toilet. Past history has shown that porta-potty's cannot withstand the abuse they receive during the Summer (Gorge concert) season. A concrete crapper will be able to better withstand the hoards and will serve visitors year-round.

 

For more information:

Washington Climbers Coalition

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+1 on the permanent shitter! Thanks WCC.

On a busy weekend (which is any summer weekend) there is usually a 5.10 crag rising out of the porta shitter that reaches above the seat.

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So yeah go ahead, forget the bolts just go ahead and climb your protectable cracks until the rock blows and then have your buddies scrape your guts off the talus.

 

Or find another place to climb where that isn't an issue.

There are plenty of great, solid places to climb in Washington.

 

On that note Shao - we should just forego any machined or engineered gear and use hemp rope on stone chocks.........

That is the ONLY true way. :)

 

That's not the point. You can take your rope home with you at the end of the day. It's not left permanently at or on the rock.

Concert-goers aren't the only ones making a mess at Vantage. At least much of their garbage can be hauled away or burned.

There seems to be a long-standing assumption that "climbers" today are somehow specially or automatically ecologically educated or aware. I don't see that being the case at all. Count the number of bolts in the photo above at a section of "The Feathers" - short 30 ft. climbs. Outrageous!

 

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So does that mean there is a Dawg sanctioned area in Washington?

I am pretty sure all of the established areas have some bolts.

 

I respect what your saying Dawg but I feel your logic is somewhat flawed.

 

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Not trying to troll or jump into too much cross-spray, but on the routes you show in the picture of the feathers, how would you protect those routes if you were there for the first time? I know there are a few cracks next to one or two of those routes you could follow, but having climbed there a few weeks back I don't remember there being much good placement. Or are you of the opinion that if it isn't protect-able then either free solo and down climb, or just climb elsewhere?

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It's best not to encourage that miserable old wretch. He'll just come back spouting the same old worn out blah blah blah. If you've missed it just go to any post of his EVER and it's always the same. Somehow bolts are the environmental equivalent of plastic bags and carbon monoxide. Funny though how all that multi colored tat EVERYWHERE is somehow not litter? Cheers!

 

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It's best not to encourage that miserable old wretch. He'll just come back spouting the same old worn out blah blah blah. If you've missed it just go to any post of his EVER and it's always the same. Somehow bolts are the environmental equivalent of plastic bags and carbon monoxide. Funny though how all that multi colored tat EVERYWHERE is somehow not litter? Cheers!

 

I guess you're adverse to contrary opinions and thus resort to name-calling. It's not all about you; not everyone has heard my perspective and I'm pleased to continue to share it. Plastic bags can and should be picked up, "tat" can and should be removed and carbon monoxide can and should be reduced. Try that with the hundreds of convenience bolts at Vantage.

Do you believe in the general concept of "Leave No Trace" as understood by just about any average backpacker, etc? If you do, then justify what climbers have done to Vantage.

 

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I'm sure more people get more enjoyment from vantage because the bolts are there. You can't say the same about the poop. Dont like the bolts? Then don't climb them. But next time your on a popular vantage trad climb just remember how much rock was pryed out of that crack before tou got to it. To me that much change in the rock pretty much puts it equal to a sport climb. Plus all those bolts will fall off the rock at vantage pretty soon anyway

 

Thanks for the info Matt. And I definitely appreciate the work of everyone with the wcc.

 

Maybe I have to find Somone to put up a sign on the board showing people how to poo responsibly haha

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But Dawg, you have yet to point me to a Dawg approved zone.

 

So is waste that is unseen, less of a priority in your agenda?

Are you truly concerned with the environment or just the aesthetics?

 

 

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But Dawg, you have yet to point me to a Dawg approved zone.

 

So is waste that is unseen, less of a priority in your agenda?

Are you truly concerned with the environment or just the aesthetics?

 

 

There aren't "Dawg-approved zones"...you made that one up.

I'm an advocate of "clean-climbing," an environmental concept put forth decades ago and neglected with the rise and convenience of "sport climbing." Clean climbing advocates that the least alteration to the natural climbing environment is the ideal. Therefore, gear that is retrievable and leaves little trace (e.g. chocks/nuts, cams, etc.)is to be preferred rather than the repeated placement of pitons or the permanent establishment of routes consisting solely of closely-spaced bolts. Therefore, bolts and pins should be rare and each should be justified. This philosophy advocates that it's better to leave the rock alone than to mar it with a line of closely-spaced permanent anchors. By these standards, Vantage is an atrocity. Do I believe that all bolts should be banned? No, they have their limited place, but they should be RARE.

 

Sport climbing is fun. It drastically reduces the learning curve, it's mostly safe, the manufacturers love it because it sells a lot of shoes, ropes, harnesses, etc., but it's all about convenience at the expense of the rock.

 

You're welcome to disagree, but name-calling (routine here on cc.com) doesn't address the issue and pointing out the larger impacts of roads and ski-lifts doesn't absolve anyone of their individual responsibility over their own actions, for example, to drill another sport route or to endorse it by climbing it.

 

For one of the early classic declarations of this viewpoint read Doug Robinson's, "The Natural Art of Protection" from the 1972 Chouinard catalog:

1972 Chouinard Catalog and Essay

 

Read it, think about it, and then tell me what you think of Vantage. Or visit Icicle Canyon in Leavenworth, where you'll find a wonderland of numerous clean climbs invaded by a bunch of gratuitous bolted lines. You might be interested to know that more and more climbing areas are being closed, or put under rules, because of over-bolting and other climber abuses.

And despite what you might read on cc.com, I'm not the only one that agrees with the above.

 

aloha,

 

- "Raindawg"

 

 

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Dawg

I have read the piece from the Chouinard catalog.......many years ago.

I am familiar with clean climbing practices and it is my personal preference.

 

You told me to climb in one of the solid areas in Washington with protectable cracks...........I am still waiting for direction.......where?

 

I have not resorted to name calling and pointing out ski lifts or what not.

Please show me the same respect by not lumping me in to that category.

 

So you are not anti bolt, so what is the approved standard in your opinion? One bolt per route? Two? Belay stations only?

 

Again I see your only addressing the aesthetic blight of bolts.

How can you get so ramped up on a sliver of the overall picture?

You're an intelligent man, perhaps you could use your fervor to actually work toward change on accesses issues, waste management, or education of the

the younger generation.

 

It would have to be more satisfying than ranting on CC.com. more conducive to change as well.

 

 

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Therefore, bolts and pins should be rare and each should be justified.

 

 

Dawg......who gets to justify these rare placements? I have established about 15 climbs in my time (all have at least one bolt) and "justified" each one. Of course I learned a valuable lesson in the process. You cannot please everyone.

 

I disagree with you but have much respect for your opinion.

 

Cheers..... :brew:

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Therefore, bolts and pins should be rare and each should be justified.

 

 

Dawg......who gets to justify these rare placements? I have established about 15 climbs in my time (all have at least one bolt) and "justified" each one. Of course I learned a valuable lesson in the process. You cannot please everyone.

 

I disagree with you but have much respect for your opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers..... :brew:

:tup:

 

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Do I believe that all bolts should be banned? No, they have their limited place, but they should be RARE.

 

I would love an example of an existing bolt that you think is justified.

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