JayB Posted February 6, 2002 Share Posted February 6, 2002 Last I heard someone was considering organizing an effort to replace the rap anchors and hangers that had been stolen from the routes out at Vantage this Spring. I'm not sure if that's still on or not, but until I hear an announcement to the contrary I'll assume that that's DOA. I'll be moving back to Washington during the first weekend of March, and will have a couple of months to play before I start looking for a job out there. Consequently, I'll have more than enough time to organize an effort to replace the hangers on the existing routes. I'd plan on setting a date in the latter half of March. I checked the prices at MEC and it looks like you can get Fixe 3/8ths hangers for $2.00 Canadian. At those prices I'd be willing to pitch in for 40 hangers and a rap anchor just to get the ball rolling. If you're interested in joining me in this effort (donations of gear, money, or time) or can direct me to information about a similar effort that's already underway, please send me a PM. Note: All I intend to do here is replace hangers on existing bolts. I have no intention of adding any bolts to existing routes or to install them in new ones. Please keep that in mind before sending any comments my way. Cheers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 jayb i commend your effort and i am all for replacing the missing hangers. but ask yourself this, will someone steal my hangers after i replace them??? and why are these people steeling the hangers??? and if you want i'll even help you replace them.... i still think though that until a reason or person is found, then maybe vantage should be left in it's current condition....for what i saw there appeared to be no dangerous situations...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCKY Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 Kevin Pogue is in the process of retrofixing sushinewall and is accepting help see retrofix tread FCCC yahoo message board www.frenchmancoulee.orgGo links than egroups [ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: LUCKY ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 7, 2002 Author Share Posted February 7, 2002 Thanks Erik: Anytime you replace a hanger you a presenting someone with the opportunity to steal it. That's a risk I'm willing to take in order to insure that whoever ripped them off in the first place does not succeed in his ambitions to render these routes unclimbable - if that was in fact his intention. If we're just dealing with a cheap bastard who needed a few dozen hangers, hopefully he has enough now and will leave the area alone. If nothing else, the fact that the peak season will be underway soon and the crowds will follow should make it more difficult for anyone to mess with the routes there. Anyhow, when and if this hanger replacement gets off the ground I intend on securing them to the bolts in a manner that will at least insure that the thief has to work very hard scoot off with them. If this really is someone who stole the hangers out of strong objection to the bolting that has occured at Vantage, maybe he'll speak up and the community can attempt to engage him in a dialogue and address his grievances in some fashion. As far as the cooling off period is concerned, it'll be at least a month and a half before I have any role in replacing hardware at the Coulee so perhaps this will allow things to settle down a bit/and or give whoever ripped them off a chance to chime in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 7, 2002 Author Share Posted February 7, 2002 Lucky: Thanks for the update - the problem may be nonexistent by the time I finish my move, but I imagine they'll accept a donation in my absence if the fix goes in before I get out there I checked the site and sent an e-mail to one of the contacts listed on the page with questions about the particulars of the retrofix efforts over there, and will keep everyone who is interested in helping out posted. [ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: JayB ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegetablebelay Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 Jayb, I just found about $40 Canadian in the seat cushions of my couch and while sport climbing sucks, I'd contribute to that amount to your efforts. Simply send me a pm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 7, 2002 Share Posted February 7, 2002 quote: Originally posted by vegetablebelay: Jayb, I just found about $40 Canadian in the seat cushions of my couch and while sport climbing sucks, I'd contribute to that amount to your efforts. Simply send me a pm. what were you doing in the seat cushions, looking for your lost ounce? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted February 8, 2002 Share Posted February 8, 2002 quote: Originally posted by JayB: That's a risk I'm willing to take in order to insure that whoever ripped them off in the first place does not succeed in his ambitions to render these routes unclimbable - if that was in fact his intention. They are not unclimbable now. They're just not leadable. Actually, some are probably still leadable too, just not as safely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cappellini Posted February 8, 2002 Share Posted February 8, 2002 i'm down with erik..either the hangers were stolen simply because the perpetrators needed some hangers..... or they were removed for a deeper reason....like crowding natural lines, placed near natural pro, or so close together you could ao without slings....if the coulee lost half its routes it would still probably have the same number of good ones...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted February 8, 2002 Share Posted February 8, 2002 I be with capp and erik. You might be wasting your time, money and energy replacing them if they get removed again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 8, 2002 Share Posted February 8, 2002 What do y'all think about replacing the bolts with glue in eye bolts. They can't be stolen, but if someone gets it into their head to pull them out the result can be an ugly mess. Personally, I'm in the Dick Cilley pool of top ropers (not that I can climb anywhere near his level, only that I love the tr). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted February 8, 2002 Share Posted February 8, 2002 matt, i still don't quite think the issue lies with people just stealing the hangers....sure thats what they are doing, but why???? and to put in glue in bolts you would have to redrill and that is messy and if they retro bolted alot of the those routes with as many bolts they have in them now....i might just weaken the rock..... and i also dont think making the bolts and hanger more permantent does anything but detract from the area..... i still say leave vantage alone for know.....there was controversy putting alot of the routes up and there will be alot of controversy taking them down...... i am going out there again this saturday and i will preport back some more of my investigations... anyone else want to come, it's only cragging might as well bring everyone!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 8, 2002 Author Share Posted February 8, 2002 quote: Originally posted by chucK: Actually, some are probably still leadable too, just not as safely. You lead that free-standing pillar without the hangers and there's a free pitcher of whatever you want waiting for you as soon as I get in state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted February 8, 2002 Share Posted February 8, 2002 How about if I led Chossmaster? Isn't that free-standing pillar like 5.7 (and a bolt-free lead) if you chimney up between it and the wall? Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted February 8, 2002 Share Posted February 8, 2002 I don't believe this was a statement against bolting routes- why were the anchors taken off of george and martha and steel grill? I don't know what this is about. After I replaced the anchors on 3 routes, someone took the slings and rap rings, leaving the brand new hangers I put on there. So is this saying this is neither about scoring hangers or trashing sport routes? Could it be the work of some nut who is mad at the climbing community in general, one who only free solos now (saying no names)? Who knows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 8, 2002 Author Share Posted February 8, 2002 quote: Originally posted by chucK: How about if I led Chossmaster?Isn't that free-standing pillar like 5.7 (and a bolt-free lead) if you chimney up between it and the wall? Chuck Chossmaster will only get you 40oz of King Cobra. Clip'em or Skip'em will get you a chilled Zima or wine cooler.You'll have to use nuts slung around the bolts on the 11a face to score the pitcher... [ 02-08-2002: Message edited by: JayB ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCramer Posted February 8, 2002 Share Posted February 8, 2002 I think that there should be a replacement effort for the vandalized routes at Vantage. If the routes were vandalized by someone trying to make some sort of philosophical statement, it is especially important that an effort at restoration be made. If bad behavior always wins out, the stage is set for worse behavior in the future. That said perhaps now would be a good time to think about what routes should be restored as lead climbs and which routes should be TRs and which routes should be left fallow. I am currently starting a remodel job on my house and in moving stuff around I came across an old box of pictures. In it were some pics from the early and mid eighties taken at Vantage. I will try to post a couple to this thread over the weekend. Trying to reconcile the difference between Vantage then and now I would say that the trails along the base have a far greater impact than all the bolts. Of course all the people on a sunny spring weekend are an even bigger impact. Up until the late 80s every day I spent at Vantage my party was the only one there. Part of me thinks that perhaps the “vandal” is perhaps acting out of a reaction to the sheer popularity of the place. The popularity problem is a thorny problem. Things like staying on trails, controlling pets, picking up litter, smiling can all have an impact. Using camouflaged hangers, camouflaged chains instead of webbing can help as well. Darryl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargent_Rock Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 I think Darryl has made some very valid and important observations: the source of the problem may not rest with an individual or an ideology, but simply the popularity of the place. More people, more potential for crazy people. The solution may not be as easy to identify. One can turn back the pages of rock climbing history, and review other climbing areas. From the start the Elbsandstein had rules about who could put up routes, and how far the bolts had to be spaced. Do the German's have the same problems with their climbing areas? And if they don't, is it because of rules, or because of an open, supportive climbing community? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyjizzy Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 Germans and rules, that has really helped the world huh? German style "rule" following won't go as smoothly in a land of iconoclastic individuals like us in Freedom(Snohomish) County. God Bless me , Bronco, and rat (temporary resident of Freedom County). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by crazyjz: Germans and rules, that has really helped the world huh? German style "rule" following won't go as smoothly in a land of iconoclastic individuals like us in Freedom(Snohomish) County.God Bless me , Bronco, and rat (temporary resident of Freedom County). Actually, it has. Having a little self-discipline in your culture can produce excellent results. Witness the origin of the world's finest automobiles, beers, and leather shorts. We live in the Wild West, where just about anybody can live freely, and I wouldn't have it any other way. We don't need rules; but we do need a little pride and self-discipline. Increasingly, people are attracted to our sport because of its sexy image. Instead of appreciating that mountaineering is supposed to offer many kinds of challenges in a wilderness setting, instead of appreciating that skill and experience (not just athleltic ability) are required for excellence, it seems that many climbers today have the attitude that they should climb the hardest routes and even establish new routes within six months of starting. Many are willing to take short cuts (hang dogging and "red pointing" at a certain grade (say, 5.12), then announcing, "I climb 5.12." What seems to be genuinely missing is a sense of style and a commitment to not littering the rock. What seems to be present is a sense that anybody and everybody should be able to purchase a drill, charge it up all night, then head out to Vantage to push the envelope, to define the cutting edge of mountaineering. Too often, the result is an instultingly over-bolted 5.9 route that could easily be TR'd. For the record, I ain't never chopped a bolt. And if I were to propose a solution to all the acrimony over bolting, I'd say places at which sport-climbing is well established should be left alone by old farts like me who are offended by the place. But at the same time, I think other cliffs should be left alone by the bolt slingers. This would require self-discipline on everybody's part, a willingness to respect what the other guy does, even if we don't like it. Not to be unpatriotic, but I think other cultures might be more capable of this. Yes, the biggest problem at Vantage is the enormous popularity of the place. Is it the sun? Is it the bolts? What makes it so popular? It is my observation that the crowds and the bolts seem to arrive together. The development of a cliff like Vantage is supposed to help spread everybody out and take pressure off of other areas, and I think we've seen this happen. On the other hand, sport cliffs seem to attract a lot of new climbers since clipping bolts is as much fun (and almost as challenging) as goofin' around at Ronald McDonald Playland. I don't think anybody needs to circle the sport climbin' wagons. I don't have any first-hand information, but from what I've read on this post it seems obvious that what you've got is a cheap bastard trying to score some hardware. Don't worry, those hangers will probably reappear 3 or 4 feet to the left or right from their original line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 11, 2002 Author Share Posted February 11, 2002 quote: Originally posted by pope: And if I were to propose a solution to all the acrimony over bolting, I'd say places at which sport-climbing is well established should be left alone by old farts like me who are offended by the place. But at the same time, I think other cliffs should be left alone by the bolt slingers. Deal! Seriously though....I've been in touch with the generous fellow who is organizing the retrofix and will put in an order for the hangers and rap-station from MEC this Friday. If you want to help him out also, send me a PM and I'll provide you with his contact information. Help him out if you can. P.S. If anyone knows the identity of the hanger thief, please send him to Shelf Road so that he can steal all of the *&%ing home-made bed-frame hangers from the routes down here and we can get them replaced with real hardware.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offwidthclimber Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 blah, blah, blah, spray, spray, spray... seriously, regardless of the result of the bolt replacement (which i personally don't mind), i'm game to show up for a weeked or two of trail work and trash cleanup. also, on a related note, it looks like i'm going to redesign the frenchman coulee climbers coalition website, so if anyone has some photos of climbing/partying/etc at the coulee they'd like to share for use on the new site, send them my way offwidthclimber@hotmail.com peace out. ps. jayB... drop me an email, yo. i'm down with some climbing when you get back this way... and buying you a couple beers for your effort and generosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allison Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 If you want to ensure that the gear isn't removed and reused my some intrepid gear thief, I don't see any reason you couldn't put a smear of epoxy on the bolts as you drop them in, though given the properties of epoxy it would be a hassle. Having not tried it I guess that it would cause the bolt to shear upon removal, and hopefully discourage the thieves from continuing. It would work. Now this just comes to me off the top of my head and may have other implications, feel free to comment. No flamey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juneriver Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 Allison,I'm not sure that I totally understand what you are proposing. But if it's putting epoxy on the bolts that thread into the sleeve in the rock so that they can't be turned out without shearing, I think that's a really bad idea.If someone did go to steal the gear and sheared the bolts they would still get the hangers, and leave a lot of sheared off bolts in the rock that would really difficult to cover up or reuse. A real mess. Even, worse would be if they cranked on a few and then gave up. That could significantly damage/weaken the bolts or the rock around them. This would be invisible damage until the next unlucky sap took a fall onto it. I would think this might be something to be considered with any gluing or thread peening on any bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted February 11, 2002 Share Posted February 11, 2002 Back to Charlie's comments. You can try to be an internet cop but it never seems to work when trying to determine who is chopping bolts or stealing gear...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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