alpenlady Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) I was hoping for some helpful advice but forgot this is cc.com so I will just be attacked and nothing useful will come of posting here. And, maybe I'm the one who's wrong here anyway. Edited April 17, 2012 by alpenlady Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) Youth Dynamic Adventures, based out of Plain, Washington, is polishing the rock in the Icicle by bringing clients climbing in their street shoes, and they are teaching and using unsafe procedures!!!! How can we stop this from happening? (Not a rhetorical question, I need advice here!)Â I was climbing at the slabs on the right of Clamshell Cave in the Icicle on Sunday when I met a large party led by Youth Dynamic Adventures based out of Plain, Washington. Â I was appalled to listen as the clients were told to toprope the slab in their street shoes. They were instructed to find edges and put the edge of their shoe on them. One was wearing Keds and the other jogging shoes. Then they were taught to belay, tied in, and unsuccessfully attempted to "climb" the slab. Â When I said something to the trip leader about how that practice will polish the rock and an environmental education organization should be teaching stewardship and leading by example, not desecrating our resources, he said to me "There's nothing you can do about it." His excuse was that they didn't have enough money to buy shoes for all of their clients. Â Leavenworth Mountain Sports rents shoes in sizes 4.5 - 13 for $10 per day! YDA charges $185 per person for their rock climbing trip! So even if YDA doesn't own enough shoes for their clients, they could easily rent them. On their website they are advertising to people that they will get to go rock climbing, but you can't climb those slabs in street shoes so doesn't that seem like false advertising? Â If you are going to run a business, you need to run it right, and that includes providing the necessary equipment for your clients to have the experience that you are selling - namely, rock climbing. Polishing up our shared resource of the rock to save a few bucks just seems wrong to me. Is anyone with me on this one? Or am I just insanely uptight? I would like to take my nieces, nephews, children, and grandchildren to the Icicle to learn to climb. Clamshell is a great spot for beginners and I won't be able to do that if the slabs are polished to glass by these cheapskates. Â I also have big concerns about this organization's safety practices - the leader taught his clients to hip belay as a backup belay for the ATC belay he had just taught. And - he taught it incorrectly. He taught his clients to wrap the rope under their armpit, behind their back, around the other side under that armpit, and then hold it across the front of their body. No hips involved. What??? Now I am no hip belay expert but that looked very dangerous to the belayer. If he or she were actually even able to hold the fall I would anticipate broken ribs for the belayer. The hip belay even when done properly by an expert is NOT THAT SAFE, and done incorrectly by a novice climber wearing no gloves - !!!!! There is a reason the ATC was invented, and they had a second one lying on the ground unused right beside the so-called "backup belayer". Â Climbing is anarchic by nature and I don't want it any other way, but there has got to be something that we as a climbing community can do to stop these destructive practices by this particular company. Specifically to get them to stop having their clients climb in street shoes, although the dangerous not-really-a-hip belay "backup" needs to go, too. Â Ideas, anyone????? Â Climbing in street shoes polishes the rock "into glass," and desecrates our resources? Â Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds ludicrous. I've never before heard anyone even suggest that climbing shoes were meant to protect the rock. Who told you this? I've never even heard anything similar. Â Edited April 17, 2012 by rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keenwesh Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 rock shoes polish the rock too, especially when wielded by noobs. Â the hip belay was standard for years, and although I've never caught a leader fall with one myself there are plenty of stories of catches of huge falls. look on supertopo. Teaching beginners how to hip belay though, not really sure about that. especially with the rope running under the armpits. Â my suggestion is to climb somewhere else, I try and stay away from those spots because there are often hords of guided clients tring the shit out of everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchy Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Or am I just insanely uptight? ALERT: Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Over time, when your shoes skate across the rock, you smooth the rock. Like sandpaper to rough wood. When your shoes slide, the rock gets polished. When you put a beginner in sticky shoes their feet don't slide all over the place. They can climb. Â hmm. You really think it's so dramatic that my children won't be able to enjoy leavenworth slab because a group of guys skidded over it with street shoes? Â Of course, ANY shoe will polish the rock, eventually -- just look at Midway. But you really think the difference between a climbing shoe and a street shoe is so dramatic? Sounds dubious. What about hiking boots, then? Or climbing boots? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchy Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I break from this site for like 14 months, come back, and find that not a single fucking thing has changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpenlady Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 Rob - I think over time it does make a difference. Yes. If it were just one group of people then that would not matter. But a company bringing people out every weekend - it adds up is what I think. But, maybe I'm wrong. I deleted my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Bouldering with street shoes: slick-footing. Roped climbing with street shoes: clobbering. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keenwesh Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 maybe I'm the one who's wrong here anyway. Â ya think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drederek Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I was hoping for some helpful advice but forgot this is cc.com so I will just be attacked and nothing useful will come of posting here. And, maybe I'm the one who's wrong here anyway. Well you're not wrong - this is cc.com. Everyone gets the business at some point. Just focus on the positives and learn to ignore the negatives. And checkout the post to tr ratio before you take someones comments too seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 It's a SPRAY dog, Spray world. Welcome to the hood! Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 How can we invent SPRAY BOXING? I got the first half fig'rd out, can't quite fill in the rest of the details. Must seek help desk... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Spray Boxing 101  Jab, jab, jab...  Always and consitentematly jab, jab , jab. jabb,er. jab  Really, just go for the SPRAY z "jab"...   Example: "Oh yeah, I clipped that old pin, rusted and all. I even scrubbed it w my 'jangely stuff'."    Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 After wearing them down with the jab, go for the Left Hook (or Right if you prefer), like... Â "WTF, TAT is AID@ MOF@*#$@!..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 sickie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 sickie sickie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 sickie sickie sickie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 sickie sickie sickie sickie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 sickie sickie sickie sickie sickie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 If spray is art, what is life? Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 It's a simple question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 It's a simple question. I think I done answered my own question. Perhaps. Â At least in my own mind. Mind you. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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