archenemy Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Wow,I didn't read all this before dozing off, but I did agree with the first few chapters of the novel(yours). On the other hand, my best friend throughout college was a frat boy. One of the best guys I ever knew. Sure, he may have been surrounded by a pool of vomit and a haze of smoke, but what the fuck, it's college. I also lived in a fraternity during a summer break. Nice and quiet. And filthy. What is inexcusable is the physical, mental, and emotional abuse these boys heap on each other and people around them. Reminds me of my cousins - they are so sweet when there's one or two of them. Any more than that and they form a pack to enact some twisted lord of the flies shit. What's up with that anyway? Wow. Great article. I could not agree more with you on your doubts and opposition to the social college frats, AT LEAST as it regards this kind of sick and destructive behavior. I think it's harder to say if this kind of thing is endemic or common to all frats, or the entire Greek system. As for the reason why anyone would subject themselves to this kind of mutual abuse, I think the article itself explains it pretty clearly; Lohse recounts how he himself was almost desperate to "belong" to this perverse frat culture because it was the stepping stone to corporate success, wealth, prestige, power, etc. And he DOES say that he did things while drunk, like wallowing in the pool of filth, eating "vomlets", etc., that he, or anyone else, would NEVER have done if they were sober. The Buddhists list 5 Precepts for life behavior, such as not to kill, steal, misuse sex, or lie, AND, to refrain from using intoxicants. And WHY refrain from intoxicants? Because it makes all the others just that much easier to do. That little bit of advice is only about 2600 years old...but all you have to do is read the paper or watch the news any given day to see that it's pretty much the truth. Doesn't matter who you are or how educated, refined or smart you are, either. It's not hard to make the connection between the frat hazing practice of vomiting and shitting on other people, date-raping coeds, and the way current corporate CEOs, Wall Street hacks, bankers, conservative politicians and flacks are pissing and shitting on, and raping the ordinary working people of this country every day. If that's the culture they learn and identify with in college, no wonder they think it's their perfect right to treat people that way in real life. Sure, why not make predatory loans and profit from millions of foreclosures, why not feed off the tragedy and cruel suffering of hard-working families turned out into the street, they're all just grubs and schlubs, just a bunch of fucking low-life losers any way, right? From reading this article, you could almost say that the Greek frat system, and SAE and Dartmouth in particular, is the origin and reason for a lot of the mess this country is in today. These are vile, immoral assholes who think they are entitled to fuck, and fuck with anyone or anything they want, and god help anyone who gets in their way. Pretty well describes to a "T" the attitude of most conservative Republicans in Congress, Tea Partiers, etc. These are the people who think that if you get sick and can't afford health care, then you should just fucking die. (Tea Party demonstators at a recent rally actually were chanting,in public,and on camera, " Whatcha gonna do with the uninsured and sick? LET 'EM DIE! LET 'EM DIE!!".) Great folks, aren't they... I remember that SAE was among the worst frats when I was in college. I went to a party at the SAE house at the UW once, and then again 20 years later, my first year of grad school at Utah St. Both times, what started out as seeming like it might be a fun evening, turned pretty quickly into a revolting, frightening, violent and disorienting scene which I left at the first opportunity. I've never been to another(social-please note the distinction)frat party since, for any reason. Later that year at Utah St. a student at another frat party died of alchohol poisoning. I DO have to say that not all of the frats at UW or Utah State, were like that. I knew guys from other frats who were fine people, and went to a few other events at different houses where I had a great time, no abuse or hazing was allowed to take place. But there were definitely houses that had a bad rep. That being said said, I still defend the place, purpose, and value of the purely academic fraternities and sororities such as Phi Beta Kappa, Phi Theta Kappa, Sigma alpha Iota, and others, none of which maintain residential houses on any university campus, each having only a single office for the national organization, and a periodic newsletter or bulletin. In none of these organizations is there anything to even begin to approach the kinds of activity Lohse has documented. They have yearly conferences, and sometimes local meetings. My Mother, a nationally recognized concert pianist, pipe organist and music professor, used to attend SAI conferences and seminars on things like church music, piano and organ recitals, many at which she performed herself, and our parents often took me and my sisters to these events. There were receptions, dinners and banquets, and the adults could of course drink alchohol, but these were really very proper, adult events, perfectly suitable and safe for children as well. The people attending these events were among the top level of professional American classical musicians, composers, and publishers, and the seminars, talks, and conference presentations were all about music, performing, arranging, etc. I was introduced to many nationally and internationally famous musicians such as Isaac Stern the violinist, Conductor Leonard Bernstein of the New York Philharmonic, and Metropolitan Opera star Eileen Farrell, to name just a few. And that's just one profession. there are similar organizations for all kinds of others. So, again, don't confuse the difference between the social, and the academic, professional Greek organizations. There's a huge, huge difference between the spoiled rotten, entitled, drunken brats and witless thugs in college social frats, who drag each other through the filth to keep everybody in line, much as they hope to get rich doing later on, and the consummate professionals in the arts, humanities and sciences who gather to discuss,inform, enlighten and challenge each other to reach ever higher and further in the effort to raise the level of achievement in their field, and hopefully make the world a better place. And once again, I have to say, I think there are frats and sororities that are on the up-and-up. I just never had the time,or money, especially in grad school, to spend much time hanging out in that social arena. You tend to take your schoolwork a little more seriously the second time around. BTW, have you sent this article to your friends at Dartmouth? I'd be worried for them, too, at least if they were pledging to SAE. Maybe this is really the only way to put an end to this kind of thing; to get the full story out so that, maybe, eventually, the numbers of people entering these frats starts to decline, drying up the pool of prospective new members. Forewarned is forarmed; of course you have to have some kind of moral compass to begin with; sounds like Lohse's was poorly developed at best. But that's not uncommon for lots of college freshmen, things like that take some time and living, especially if you've been raised in wealth and privilege without the right kind of discipline. Something else that needs to happen, not just in frats, is to end this whole culture and attitude that says it's OK to do whatever you want, even the worst kinds of criminal behavior, just so long as you don't get caught. A good place to start, anyway. Many, many thanks for sharing this link. A very valuable piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keenwesh Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 hmm.. i was in a fraternity at umich, met a few people who I liked who lived there, made friends, got recruited/rushed. Most people are surprised to know I was in one. We were a bit of the 'f-troop' of frats, a lot of engineers, a few ROTC guys, and a sprinkling of Lit/Science/Art majors. Not really any meatheads, a lot of guys who were not alpha males. any 'hazing' was pretty tame and nothing like that article, but also stupid, i am not angry about any of it, some of it was funny, it did build a sense of bond among some of us. Obviously you don't need hazing of any sort to develop a bond which is why I say it was stupid. I think today they dont even do any, the frat got small and national more involved in helping run it. We had a lot of good times. Some f'd up shiz happened, but nothing involving law or that should have involved law other than drugs. Friends with a handful of folks still, some good camaraderie. I dunno, i think a lot of the experience is what you make of it--i was coming out straight edge from an all guys jesuit high school and needed the space to let loose of that past-the somewhat wild unchecked-party environment was helpful for that, and for my development at that phase. I do think a small school, quieter, more checked environment would have made it harder for me to come out of my social shell at that time in my life. I had plenty of friends outside the house and moved out after living there for a year and a half. I know some guys at the jewish frat at UW and they're all really nice chill guys, fun to hang out with and the few parties I've gone to at their house I've had fun. I agree with you that not all frats are bad, but I think the ones that are are really bad. I don't know anyone who has dropped out (of a fraternity, plenty of my buddies have dropped out of college) but then again, most are sophomores, so that might change in the next couple years. Seems like everyone posting here enjoyed being in them. as for the level of filth in houses, I can't believe how bad it is! Couldn't help but thinking to myself the easiest way for these guys to get laid more often would be to just clean it up a bit, instead of feeding her more shots maybe move the pile of dirty underwear off your bed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Yeah, and those guys are all circumcised, so they are ok in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 as for the level of filth in houses, I can't believe how bad it is! Yeah, just look how spotless clean it is in the dorms! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keenwesh Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 Yeah, just look how spotless clean it is in the dorms! Some of the rooms are gnar, moldy stuff stolen from food service, skid mark stained whitey tighties on the floor. My room is pretty good, only mess is the massive pile of climbing gear under my bed overflowing the milk crates it was originally supposed to fit in, at least it doesn't smell bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Right. Climbing shoes smell awesome. Yeah, just look how spotless clean it is in the dorms! Some of the rooms are gnar, moldy stuff stolen from food service, skid mark stained whitey tighties on the floor. My room is pretty good, only mess is the massive pile of climbing gear under my bed overflowing the milk crates it was originally supposed to fit in, at least it doesn't smell bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keenwesh Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 haven't been wearing my rock shoes, just got ice boots which air out pretty quick, plus my feet smell like roses. My roommate has his fucking ski boots, after he got back from skiing all spring break in colorado we had to leave the windows open for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 This is a long story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 fucking loved the summer and year after i lived in my frat-house - my bath room was the party b-room so most weekend mornings i had a comatose chick lying in a pool of purest filth to take a leak over - 100 year old floors i roamed about sans shoes at all hours, flicking raw cigarette ash in every direction, eating my toenails Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keenwesh Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 a comatose chick the best kind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Keeps the conversation at a comfortable level, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 a comatose chick the best kind! Those frat guys sure are assholes, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 a comatose chick the best kind! yaaaar, at 7:32 on a saturday, after passing out w/ arms round the porcelain god 'round 2ish in the a.m., even the most comatose of folks seem to stir after the inevitable final drop lands on their windward cheek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 a comatose chick the best kind! yaaaar, at 7:32 on a saturday, after passing out w/ arms round the porcelain god 'round 2ish in the a.m., even the most comatose of folks seem to stir after the inevitable final drop lands on their windward cheek Shut up and drive that bus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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