ADKMan Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 Another question that came up on my training climb today - is there any need for a shovel on the Emmons route in July? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Another question that came up on my training climb today - is there any need for a shovel on the Emmons route in July? Useful? Perhaps, but certainly not necessary. I never bring one in July. Edited March 25, 2012 by DPS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADKMan Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 That was my thought as well but a couple of self proclaimed " experts" i climbed with today thought differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Even experts have divergent opinons. On this thread I have read opinions from climbers whom I respect very much yet don't completely agree with. I'll bet someone is reading this right now thinking I'm nuts for suggesting a shovel is not always necessary on Rainier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADKMan Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 DPS - I completely agree. In this case I'm not sure my "experts" even know where Mt. Rainier is. Â I really appreciate all of the information presented here. It has been extremely valuable to me. Â If any of you guys are at Camp Schurman on July 12-13 maybe I can say thanks in person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 a shovel may be useful if the need to dig a snowcave came up. A route that was more committing may have this need if something like bad weather snook up on ya. If weather came in on the emmons, go back the way you came. A big stack of wands (in addition to a gps unit) would be more useful than a shovel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADKMan Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 We are planning on bringing a total of 48 wands (24 in each pack) is that adequate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) depends on how crappy it is. If it is really foul (whiteout for example), you would need a wand every rope length, that amount of rope that is between the first and last person. If you had a team of 3 with 40ft between climbers you would need one every 80ft. If you had two teams with 40 feet between climbers, you would need one every 160ft. If you had 3 rope teams of 3 people with 40 feet between, then it would be every 240 ft. (For multiple teams the last person on one rope would need to be close to the first person on the other rope team.) For a 5 mile (26400 ft) walk up, you will need a butt load of wands. 330 for a team of 3. Â If it is really that bad, go down instead of bringing that many wands up. Â What usually happens is that wands are placed in changing directions and around suspicious crevasse areas. Almost more like a warning on the return trip. I can usually find remnants of the uphill track if the snow has been falling or the wind has been blowing for a little while but it is nice for the wands to make me aware that I need to look for tracks in different direction at those changing direction locations. If you think that your tracks are going to be covered within a couple hours, you really need to think about getting back down quick. Â While I usually don't recommend technology, a gps unit with bactrack and fresh batteries is a better option over wands if your concern is travel in whiteouts. Â so the short answer to your short question is, yeah, you have enough wands. Edited March 25, 2012 by genepires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whatcomboy Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Don't bring a shovel for Emmons route. That is one item to save weight on. Plenty of tent sites dug out or just use the axe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADKMan Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 All sounds good, I think we're getting pretty close to having everything dialed in. Now we have to hope for a high pressure system to come in between July 12-14. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougd Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 My partner and I each brought a shovel to Camp Schurman last June. They came in handy there for improving the tent site we ended up choosing, and, our neighbors were very glad we brought them for refining their sites as well. Often the existing sites need work there... Â We did not carry them to the summit. Sky was pretty clear on summit day but winds were 30mph and gusting up to 50 - 60 range right in our faces the last 2000ft or so. Not very many summiting that day but we gutted it out. Definately something to be said for tenacity when heading up this route. Â d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wetslide Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 On the shovel debate- I usually bring one of those aluminum (I believe that is what it is made out of) snow claw. It can be slung as a deadman after you carve out your tent platform, used for harvesting snow for melting, or just sitting on. Lightweight as well. Just depends on how you want to work things. I always find it helpful to bring as many things that can anchor the tent as possible. Like Dougd, I don't bring it past high camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADKMan Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 I never thought about the snowclaw, I have one of those as well. I will discuss it with my partner but that sounds like a reasonable compromise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 This is where I am at right now:Â I will bring (and wear) a helmet. If for no other reason the summit photo will look cooler. I might look to get something a bit lighter than my Ecrin Roc at about 16 oz., maybe a BD Half Dome at 10 oz. Â I will use my existing SS crampons. I'm pretty confident I can keep my pack weight to 35 pounds or less and I am comfortable with that. Â Both of us are pretty fit. We started training about 3 months ago. 4-5 days a week in the gym, 1-2 days climbing, lots of biking, some running. I am pretty comfortable we'll be physically ready by July. Â The real X factor for me is the altitude. I've never climbed above about 6500 feet. I drove to about 11,000 feet one time and got a splitting headache but I went from about 5000 to 11,000 in less than 2 hours. I am hoping a more controlled ascent will help. Â Sounds like a pretty good training regiment. If you can find a long snow slope that's convenient, hauling a heavy pack up and down will best prepare your nervous sytem for the strain of the aproach and climb. Â FWIW I used a shovel at Camp Muir once to keep our tent from collapsing in an unforcasted heavy snow event. Not a bad idea to bring to base camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADKMan Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 Bronco - Unfortunately we have had record warm temperatures this winter in the Northeast so our "snowslope" options are very limited. This being said, we have plenty of opportunities to climb 2500-4000 feet over 4-6 miles with heavy packs. So even though we won't have the snow advantage we can still get the uphill workout. Â We will try to do at least one climb a week (including a few overnights / multi day climbs) in addition to our gym work. Â Hopefully all of this will give us a reasonable chance to get to the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 FWIW I used a shovel at Camp Muir once to keep our tent from collapsing in an unforcasted heavy snow event. Not a bad idea to bring to base camp. FWIW, never use a shovel to remove snow from the tent itself. Small burrs can catch and easily tear the tent wall. Use a gloved hand or arm to sweep snow off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADKMan Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 I suppose a shovel can make a relatively good tent anchor but if that is it's primary purpose I can think of a number of better options. Â I realize that the decision to bring any certain piece of gear can be right or wrong based on the specific conditions we encounter. So the best we can do is make the most educated decision based on the best beta we can get. If we approach our planning in this way at least we stack the odds in our favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 I suppose a shovel can make a relatively good tent anchor but if that is it's primary purpose I can think of a number of better options. Deadmanned trekking poles work well in snow or with rocks piled on them in dirt. I realize that the decision to bring any certain piece of gear can be right or wrong based on the specific conditions we encounter. So the best we can do is make the most educated decision based on the best beta we can get. If we approach our planning in this way at least we stack the odds in our favor. One approach is to bring all the gear to the trailhead and make a decision on what to leave behind based on recent climber/ranger reports, current weather forecasts, conversations with returning climbers, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADKMan Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 One approach is to bring all the gear to the trailhead and make a decision on what to leave behind based on recent climber/ranger reports, current weather forecasts, conversations with returning climbers, etc. Â To a large extent that is what we will end up doing. My goal though is to have 90% of the process under control and the final 10% will be trailhead decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScaredSilly Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 To some extent I find this, now 7 page thread rather funny when I compare it to my trip up Rainier. Hell we just showed up with a pair of wool pants and a wool shirt with polypro underwear. Yeah we had a Gore-Tex jacket and some pants to go over them along with a pile jacket. So a mix of old school and high tech for the time. But the point is quit thinking about it so much, just show up at the hill and throw yourself at it and see what happens. If you are thinking about your gear in the slightest and paying attention to conditions you more than likely will be fine. But perhaps the biggest is to try shit out and learn from it. If going up the Emmons dragging too much may be a drag but if you get up there and have a day to fart around with it then at least you are doing something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADKMan Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 ScaredSilly - While I appreciate your message I don't think the content of this thread has been anything but useful. Not only to me and my partner but anyone else who may be planning a similar trip. Unfortunately my trip isn't scheduled until July so I can't just go out and climb the mountain. My partner and I are coming from the East Coast so unfortunately it takes time, effort and expense to plan and execute the climb. Â As far as I am concerned my original questions have been asked and answered. If additional comments or questions are raised on this thread I will respond accordingly. Otherwise I appreciate all of the feedback everyone has given. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) I think a lot of new climbers wring their hands over what to carry on the Big R because it is one of the few variables they have control over. One can also train appropriately, but one can't control the weather, objective hazards, conditions on the mountain, or their physiology and reaction to altitude. Also, taking time off from busy schedules, flying across the country, etc costs more time and money than driving from Seattle so non locals want to stack the odds in their favor as much as possible. Not to mention non locals do not have the opportunity to work out their systems on lower but similar mountains like Mt Baker. Edited March 27, 2012 by DPS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADKMan Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 Well said DPS - The closest thing to Mt. Rainier we have here in the Northeast is Mt. Washington (New Hampshire) which gains 4200 feet in about 4 miles. This has a whole different set of challenges and although it can be a good training ground for mountaineering in general it's completely different than what we will encounter in July. Â Thanks again to everyone for their help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinisto Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Also, taking time off from busy schedules, flying across the country, etc costs more time and money than driving from Seattle so non locals want to stack the odds in their favor as much as possible. Â ^^^This iz korrekt. Â Like ADK, I attempted Rainier in '10, coming from the Right Coast and was glad to be able to look at threads here and on MP and SP to get beta on gear, training, etc. We ended up bailing on the Kautz due to high avy risk (30' of snow in the Chute will do that...) but we didn't define success=summiting, so it was a great trip regardless. Â (ADK, shoot me a PM if you have other questions not answered here.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanO Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Agree with ADK and Alpinisto -- this thread has been helpful for me as I'm hoping to do a couple Rainier ascents this summer after an attempt last summer. Thanks for the info to everyone who has contributed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.