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Medical and Utility Pharmaceutics Mountaineering


Marmot Prince

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I have a doctor who will basically give me any plausible medication I need for activities. I'm writing because I'm obviously circumspect and cautious about using drugs when mountaineering but wondering if they could be used in rare or emergency situations.

 

I AM EVALUATING ANY CHANCE OF THEIR UTILITY TO HELP IN EMERGENCY SITUATIONS. I AM NOT USING SUBSTANCES CASUALLY OR AS A PERFORMANCE ENHANCER.

 

I bring along aspirin/ibuprofen right now but I'm wondering if more hard core painkillers and stimulants have use up there in the mountains. For example Vicodin helps you sleep along with its painkilling abilities. You could use stimulants to help a team member get out of a bad situation that could be life threatening, for example a major objective hazard such as seracc fall or storm.

 

Obviously the biggest concern is that if you need to take hardcore meds, you are in a bad position to start and they could aggravate your condition.

 

I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts or experience about vicodin, dopaminergic stimulants, etc, espiecally if you have medical experience.

Edited by Marmot Prince
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I know plenty of people who take along more "hardcore" pain meds to use in the event of some sort of emergency. For the most part, they have basic medical training or are at least smart people with a good deal of common sense. So in general, yes, there is a rational basis in taking along something like that. Whether somebody like you, specifically, asking for advice over the internet, should be carrying and possibly using them, is probably an entirely different question.

 

you could use stimulants to help a team member get out of a bad situation that could be life threatening, for example a major objective hazard such as seracc fall or storm

 

When I read this, I can't help but picture the dex injection scene in that terrible movie...K2 I think it was.

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Vicodin is far from hardcore pain meds, basically Tylenol and a little codeine. In my kit I carry the following drugs:

 

Sodium Naproxen (Aleve) - the strongest NSAID

Asprin

Garlic tablets

Keflex broad spectrum antibiotic

Dilaudid - real pain killer

 

I have had a lot of experience with these drugs and my knowledge outstrips most folks due to my education and personal experience. Obviously, one needs to know when not to take these drugs, (when they are contraindicated) as well as when to take them. These are all for personal use, dispensing them to patients without a medical license is a no no.

 

Other drugs like dexamethazone I don't carry because I generally don't climb higher than 6000 meters. Also don't carry Diamox because I don't have problems at the moderate altitudes I climb at.

Edited by DPS
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When I read this, I can't help but picture the dex injection scene in that terrible movie...K2 I think it was.

 

I actually watched this recently . . . they called it "adrenaline", it looked an awful lot like an epi pen administered directly to the neck. Edit: You're probably thinking of Vertical Limit, which has even more nonsense.

 

Trolling or not, for the benefit of anyone else reading this, here goes. I'm a Wilderness EMT, which sounds a lot more impressive to those who don't actually know how limited an EMT's scope of practice is . . . but for me, it boils down this:

 

Prescription Painkillers: These often have other detrimental side effects - decreased respiration rate, diuretic, etc. I carry some leftover vicodin but in general it's "I'm sorry you're hurt but pain won't kill you. Suck it up." Unless it's going to make it easier for them to self-transport (doubtful), I'm not going to risk complicating their condition just to make them feel better.

 

Stimulants: I hope this is sort of a joke or just kicking random ideas around. It's one thing to take a stimulant just to stay awake - and I'm not endorsing that - but taking one while suffering from dehydration, altitude or other complications and expecting it to actually help you move faster and not blow up in your face . . . sounds a lot like playing with fire.

 

Edited by mattyj
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Having gotten into two accidents recently I definitely have been considering carrying something more than ibuprofen (particularly because its a blood thinner and not a good idea to take when your bleeding like I was). I'm going to start carrying some percocet I have left over. Just nice to have something to turn to.

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Ibuprofen and Tylonal taken together or alternated between at 2h intervals can be very effective for pain management with limited side effects.

 

A day or two of heavy duty painkillers for yourself can be a good idea sometimes.

Interestingly I know someone who was given perkasets(?) after shattering their shoulder in a bad ski accident... later on they started to develop the symptoms of inter-cranial bleeding, turns out the extreme nasiea and dizziness was the side effects of the drugs rather then a nurological emergency!

 

I have wondered about bringing some 35g Quik-Clot Granules on some ice trips to go with my MaxiPad absorbent bandages. From what I hear Quik-Clot can really help to stabilize a major bleed - my fear is always harpooning myself with an axe.

 

On some god-awefull bivys I've wished for sleeping pills, but my understanding is that the after effects are not good for climbing the morning after.

 

 

That said what I WOULD recommend is that if your climbing overseas or in third world countries would be to carry antibiotics and depending on the country some surgical supplies.

Especially if hospitals in the region may lack some basic supplies or be known for their inpropper sterilization or drug/blood product safety.

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I have wondered about bringing some 35g Quik-Clot Granules on some ice trips to go with my MaxiPad absorbent bandages. From what I hear Quik-Clot can really help to stabilize a major bleed - my fear is always harpooning myself with an axe.

 

 

If it is the old school quick clot that looks like kitty litter, toss that crap out. It will give you a third degree burn and is no bueno. Kerlix is really good at stopping bleeds, is light and is very compressible. If you are bleeding bad enough that you would need quick clot, a tourniquet (worst case) or kerlix stuffed in to the hole and add direct pressure would be better.

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For example Vicodin helps you sleep along with its painkilling abilities.

 

Vicodin or any other narcotic medication would be a bad idea to help with sleep if you're climbing at high altitude. These medications can lead to depressed breathing during sleep which is not generally a good idea for acclimatization.

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Everytime someone asks this question I think of this great TR posted on TetonGravity. Basically a bunch of guys flew into the Ruth & skied a bunch of good lines. At the end of the week no one had gotten hurt so they took all their pain killers. Good times!

 

This is probably the greatest TR ever. It almost makes this asinine thread worthwhile. I must go to that hut...

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Everytime someone asks this question I think of this great TR posted on TetonGravity. Basically a bunch of guys flew into the Ruth & skied a bunch of good lines. At the end of the week no one had gotten hurt so they took all their pain killers. Good times!

 

This is probably the greatest TR ever. It almost makes this asinine thread worthwhile. I must go to that hut...

 

Have to agree on this point.

 

Ok so the experienced posters pretty much confirm my intuition that stimulants don't make any sense. I just wanted to check because this idea sort of comes from a major mountaineering friend of mine a few years ago who used some mild, over the counter stimulants on his girlfriend once on a hike...maybe he was trying to accomplish something else.

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I have a doctor who will basically give me any plausible medication I need for activities.

 

Whatever you've been taking for trolling isn't working.

 

I AM EVALUATING ANY CHANCE OF THEIR UTILITY TO HELP IN EMERGENCY SITUATIONS. I AM NOT PLANNING TO USE ANY OF THESE ON ANY SORT OF HAZARDOUS TRIP.

 

What does that nonsense mean, you only climb in a gym?

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I take Gravol (available over the counter in Canada) which is an anti-vomit drug but it is also useful for helping you get to sleep without any ill effects the next day.

 

Also, I always carry some caffeine gum (military grade) which you can get on Amazon or Provigil, which you'll need to get from a doctor. I've got kids and a job and not a lot of time for climbing anymore, so when I get out, I usually go all weekend with just a couple hours sleep...

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""I AM EVALUATING ANY CHANCE OF THEIR UTILITY TO HELP IN EMERGENCY SITUATIONS. I AM NOT PLANNING TO USE ANY OF THESE ON ANY SORT OF HAZARDOUS TRIP.""

 

these r conflicting statements, emergencies almost always involve hazards

 

""Hermann Buhls legendary summit of nanga parbat was meth powered.""

 

yeah, i saw that dude on "faces of meth"

 

but really, where did u get that info?

 

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