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How to properly install a bolt...?


Pencil_Pusher

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So with Retro's cool description of how to take out a bolt and the precautions/techniques necessary, I figured I'd throw this topic out there as well.

How does one properly install a bolt? Through both hammer and chisel to the all-evil drill. Is there some way the driller maintains a constant angle for the hole, do they all require that glue, etc, etc?

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quote:

Originally posted by Rafael H:

Is it faster to hand-drill with 1/4" bit?

What is best put in such a hole for emergency bailing or new routes?

Thanks.

For emergency bailing:

1) Get good at down-climbing. It will save your ass more often than any other technique or piece of equipment can. Once you practice it you will find down climbing to be easier than climbing up; you will never have to do a pull up.

2) Sling a natural feature: root, tree, bush, chockstone, boulder, tunnel, pinch, knob. Or down-climb to where you can.

3) Cams are alot faster to place than even 1/4" bolts but nut placements are almost always available, especially if you are willing to down-climb.

4) If you've got a pencil dick it should easily fit into a 1/4" hole. And if you need help keeping it up, just think of Christian Griffith in Danskins.

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quote:

Originally posted by Retrosaurus:

For emergency bailing:

...

4) If you've got a pencil dick it should easily fit into a 1/4" hole. And if you need help keeping it up, just think of Christian Griffith in Danskins.

That's more fit for belay anchors. Also gotta be able to concentrate really well!

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Hey Retro,

I think that Rafael kicks butt at climbing and could down climb quite well ~ though I know you like to free solo so maybe not as well as you. wink.gif

Rafael, I think that the Pencil Dick part is good advice although mine is too big so I cannot practice this technique wink.gif Let us know how it works after you test it out.

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Pencil is the other techmo bowl weanie wink.gif

Peter Puget is really just a fake name to hide behind. I see some of his minor lies and such. Not big ones but it is becoming more obvious with time. He does not want anyone to know his "track record". Lol

Just send him a privy message and he'll tell you how to install bolts or the pencil dick belay.

Peter is that you in the Nelson Book several times?

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If someone is bolting, they should know how to do it correctly. If some is relying on bolts, they should know what they are relying on. The Fish site is loaded with good info esp. concerning testing existing bolts. I have seen several examples in Washington where, considering only the bolt/anchor setup, it appears as if a total goofball designed and placed the installation. What is pathetic is when a sensible inquiry is ridiculed.

Cavey - Damn your onto me! How did you figure out PP was a pen name? PM your address to me and I'll send you a copy of an old Yakima Guide as long as you promise not to reveal anymore of my secrets!

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Good rock/bad rock? Cracks nearby? One on top of other or side by side? 3/8 versus 1/2. Buttonheads versus bolts? Glue?

I can respect that some don't want to see any but since they're here to stay, folks might as well know the proper techniques involved.

Admittedly, when I first thought of this post a devilish grin crossed my face. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought folks should know so people can place reliable (relative) anchors, or bolts, whatever. It ought to be more than voodoo science/OJT.

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Here's how to properly place a bolt:

Take the bolt, bend over, shove it up your ass! wink.gif (Just kidding folks, let's not turn this into a shitstorm)

If you really want to know for anchors, wall routes, emergency, whatever, investigate the resources of the ASCA (Chris MacNamara's American Safe Climbing Association or something like that) they replace alot of bolts and will give you the poop on how to properly do the job. It will vary alot depending on the rock type, bolt type, intended use of the bolt, etc.

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Without question, an electric drill makes the best hole for placing a bolt. And the best bolt, IMHO, is a five-piece (3/8 to 1/2 inch in diameter and at least 3.5 inches long) since it can be taken out without additional damage to the rock and is realiably strong (stonker, in fact).

In wilderness areas where machines are illegal, a Hurricane Wilderness Drill http://www.bigwalls.net/HMWDrill.html is the ticket. With regard to what bolt to place in the wilderness, I think it depends on whether the route will see other traffic. For a trade route, I'd put in the time to hand drill a 3/8" hole. For other stuff, the old 5/16 button heads were great (again, IMHO), but haven't been manufactured for over a decade. I've used Rawl's 1/4" Spike with a fender washer (over which a nut's wire can be looped then cleaned by the second) many times for my own obscure first ascents; This set up costs about 25 cents per placement, goes in fast, is pretty strong, and can be removed with a claw hammer, or crowbar, later, if so desired. But you'll make no friends of other climbers who come across your gear (the Spike looks pretty shaky even if the shear strength is over 5,000 lbs).

 

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Rheinhold Messner once wrote something to the effect that one who brings a drill, carries his courage in his rucksack. He also refers to bolting as "the murder of the impossible."

Just thought I'd bring that up for the new climbers who might think that rap-bolting, grid and convenience bolting are the uncontroversial status quo.

- Dwayner

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To help Peter Puget put the quote in context:

Read what I wrote again: "Just thought I'd bring that up for the new climbers who might think that rap-bolting, grid and convenience bolting are the UNCONTROVERSIAL status quo." Bolting IS the status quo and a lot of new climbers probably don't realize it's still a big issue (and it's going to remain so). As far as Messner's quote is concerned, in my opinion it's universally relevant which is probably still his stance.

So if the quote is 30 years old, it's passé?

How old are you, mister Puget? ("Don't trust anyone over 30", remember that lovely slogan from the "glorious 60's"?)

aloha, Dwayner

 

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Just a bit more.

-Where does one get 5/16 buttonheads, HW store? Will just a regular stainless steel bolt do? Should one trust such a buttonhead when encountered (I haven't so far)?

-Has sanybody used those removable bolts that

look like Lowe Balls?

-Is it still bad if the 1/4" is stainless and has a hanger?

 

How should one bolt those weird and insecure handcracks: every 2 or 3 feet?

"Disclaimer": The likelihood of me installing any bolts is very-very low. Yet I consider it foolish to be unaware of this option and its proper use.

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I know that many people fear that sharing information on how to place bolts will only increase their proliferation, but I believe that most people who are going to waste a perfectly good climbing day setting bolts rather than climbing are likely to do so with or without the information.

Many people will say you should not get bolts at a hardware store but should order them specially from somewhere like Metolious. The metals vary, and I am sure that it DOES make a difference where you get them, but in general I bet just about ANY 3/8" bolt has sufficient strength that you can rely upon it, as long as it was placed properly. The same is probably true for any unrusted 1/4" bolt. When replacing or removing bolts, I have found some 3/8 stud anchors that pulled right out with little effort, and some old 1/4" x 1" button heads that were difficult to remove even with a crowbar. Stainless steel, while somewhat brittle and not as strong as some other materials when new, will take longer to rust. For some further discussion of these issues, go to http://www.safeclimbing.org/info.html and http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/techweenie.html

It would be nice if the removable bolts would work, but although the device itself may be fine, an unfilled bolt hole is often damn near impossible to spot even if you know exactly where it is. As far as I know, the best way to minimize the visual impact of a bolt is to use a powder coated hanger. My friend Dave has tried splatter painting his hangers to make them look just like the rock, but home painting wears off stainless steel very fast. The stainless steel hangers are so shiny that they can often be seen glinting in the sun, from several hundred feet away.

Information on how to place bolts is beginning to become available, but harder to find is any useful discussions of how to choose a potential new route, and exactly how to locate the "correct" placements. I will paint a target on my back by offering the following:

1. To my eye, bolted climbs are appropriate at a place like Exit 38, but not on Prussik Peak or Castle Rock. Anyone installing bolts, even if only setting a bolt here or there to link crack systems, should think carefully about whether their installation will be acceptable to other climbers.

2. I believe that most climbers, whether "sport" or "trad," young or old, agree that routes should not be too closely spaced. What that means is different at Vantage and on Snow Creek Wall, but it has been said that "squeeze jobs suck."

3. Earlier posts on this board have suggested that if a route can be top-roped it should not be bolted. Consider this.

4. It has often been suggested that if one is going to set a new route, they should do it from the ground up. In my experience, this does not always lead to the best outcome when one is setting a crag route. There are two reasons I say this: (1) the leader is probably going to be more concerned with protecting his or her own ass than they are about setting something that is most useful for others who may follow, and (2) the view from below is limited and often does not reveal where the best connection between two crack systems may lie, or where the best belay ledges are, or whatever.

If you do decide to be a coward and set bolts on rappel, the outcome will be vastly improved if at least two climbers top-rope each pitch and discuss in detail each individual bolt placement. Is there natural pro nearby? Can a slight change in one placement render another unnecessary? How will the rope run? Will someone who is shorter than you be able to reach the clip? Etc.

5. In the old days, it was hard to place bolts and every placement would be carefully considered just in order to be practical. With modern power drills, the urge to pull the trigger can cloud common sense. The resulting mess is not easily cleaned up.

 

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Dwayner –

Thanks for the help! You’re right of course, the quote is no more passe than those arguments from years past against the use of ropes, piton cams or climbing specific training. Make the argument your authority not an appeal to something outside of it. I once received sage advice suggesting that I do not obfuscate. I would offer the followingvice: don't sloganeer.

Rafael –

Button heads can be good or bad making a generalization as to their quality difficult. But as the years go by they will of course start to approach 100% unreliability. I would say that 1/4” SS are always a terrible choice. In my experience, the metal seems to be too brittle for that size anchor. Weird and insecure hand cracks should be bolted as you would any crack – every three to four feet.

“Disclaimer” -that last part about bolting cracks was a joke.

 

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