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Marmot Prince

Screamer for Belayer

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Just wondering a thought, why isn't there some kind of device for belayers that extends rope in a high factor fall, like a screamer but working near the belayer's device?

 

There are alot of situations where you would take a high factor fall but would be far off the deck, so adding another 3-5 feet of rope extension could take plenty of force off you.

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Really wouldn't be nearly as effective as a screamer. A piece of pro takes 2X the force the belayer or fall does.

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Really wouldn't be nearly as effective as a screamer. A piece of pro takes 2X the force the belayer or fall does.

 

It takes twice the force because there is fall force on the piece and opposing force from the belayer.

 

So a screamer like device at the belayer level that reduces forces at the belayer by 1 kn could actually reduce the force on the piece by 2 kn, so wouldn't it be twice as effective?

 

Maybe some engineers can chime in.

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Maybe some engineers can chime in.
I am an engineer, with decades of experience in these calculations and related matters, but by royal proclamation of Marmot Prince, I am an e-mountaineer and I don't know shit.

 

BTW, your math sux. But I don't know shit...

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Maybe some engineers can chime in.
I am an engineer, with decades of experience in these calculations and related matters, but by royal proclamation of Marmot Prince, I am an e-mountaineer and I don't know shit.

 

BTW, your math sux. But I don't know shit...

 

Are you the guy in the other thread who creeped all my previous posts and spun them into a nonsensical story and started crying after I told you how crazy you sounded?

 

I thought you were Mr. Rainier super hero. Don't you have some gumbies to rescue from a crevasse or something instead of following me from thread to thread?

 

At least you're being consistently creepy.

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Lol, Marmot Printz went from 0 to Douche in the space of 3 posts, you might want to pay more attention to Sobo as he might have more of a clue than you...

 

:poke:

 

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Maybe some engineers can chime in.
I am an engineer, with decades of experience in these calculations and related matters, but by royal proclamation of Marmot Prince, I am an e-mountaineer and I don't know shit.

 

BTW, your math sux. But I don't know shit...

Are you the guy in the other thread who creeped all my previous posts and spun them into a nonsensical story and started crying after I told you how crazy you sounded?

 

I thought you were Mr. Rainier super hero. Don't you have some gumbies to rescue from a crevasse or something instead of following me from thread to thread?

 

At least you're being consistently creepy.

The fact that you ask this question (screamer for belayer?) is proof enough to me that you really have not a clue. But you are such a fucking douchenozzle that you actually make me laugh. And I needed a good laugh. At least you can know you've added something positive to the discussion.

Have fun storming the castle, Prince! :wave:

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Jesus Christ, he even changed his signature...

 

I'm pretty concerned now about a new hazard on my Rainier trip, forget crevasses, exposure, or HACE, the most deadly predator: Vengeful CC members!

 

I'll be careful not to publish the dates of my trip, otherwise sobo and others might be waiting in a quiet section of the mountain with special "ice tools" just for me.

 

Well, that's assuming they can make it out of their chairs...

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Yeah, my ass is so big it's stuck in my e-mountaineer chair in front of my laptop. You'll be safe, at least from me. From yourself? Well, that's still up for debate...

 

Have a Happy New Year. I've got a party to get to. :brew:

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Yeah, my ass is so big it's stuck in my e-mountaineer chair in front of my laptop. You'll be safe, at least from me. From yourself? Well, that's still up for debate...

 

Have a Happy New Year. I've got a party to get to. :brew:

 

This is as much a party as I'm going to get. I have to pack for another trip. Anyways, we both know how this is going to end sobo. You, Me, and 2 ice axes on Columbia Crest.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBTtq2Gzm6w&feature=related

 

By the way, a dynamic belay device is a pretty interesting idea, at least a clue.

Edited by Marmot Prince

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It's called a dynamic belay.

 

Yeah easy enough for top roping but what if you're belay station is a 2 foot shelf or just hanging? Instead of carrying 4-6 screamers and having to place them with your pro, you could have such a device, or have both to reduce impacts further.

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I believe that the conventional wisdom is to hang on, and let the rope and any screamers do the work. Dynamic belays went away in the sixties

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It's called a dynamic belay.

 

Yeah easy enough for top roping

 

You give dynamic top rope belays? Nice

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a screamer on the belay is only useful in a rope-solo belay anchor.

 

re-visit your physics classes on pulleys to see why the top piece, then the climber receive the brunt of the force

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Don't you guys know a troll when you see one?

 

You mean like people who enter threads off topic to insult others?

 

a screamer on the belay is only useful in a rope-solo belay anchor.

 

re-visit your physics classes on pulleys to see why the top piece, then the climber receive the brunt of the force

 

Then why is it always a good idea to give dynamic belays? The force is only applied because the belayer holds the rope during the fall. If the belayer gives rope (by moving his body or letting the rope go through) the peak force is greatly reduced.

 

 

 

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Then why is it always a good idea to give dynamic belays? The force is only applied because the belayer holds the rope during the fall. If the belayer gives rope (by moving his body or letting the rope go through) the peak force is greatly reduced.

 

 

 

Exactly. Ok, let me concede a point to you in this example (and maybe the only example where a screamer with a human belayer would actually be useful).

 

scenario: belayer is tied tightly into the belay unable to move at all, and he/she is using a Gri-Gri.

 

but in any other scenario, the force the belayer can absorb, even with slippage in a non-autolocking belay device, should completely negate any additional effect a screamer would have on the belayer itself.

 

BUT! Let's pretened that we move the screamer to the first piece placed on lead, or a piece clipped to anchor itself. Since the climber has so little rope out, the fall factor becomes an issue for the climber (but still not for the belayer).

 

Lets say the climber didn't clip a screamer onto the anchor or on the first piece, falls, and generates a factor 2 fall! Okay, now to anchor fails, and rips out! The belay will still not feel what the leader or anchor felt in this fall. A screamer on the belayer would still do nothing.

 

get it?

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BUT! Let's pretened that we move the screamer to the first piece placed on lead, or a piece clipped to anchor itself. Since the climber has so little rope out, the fall factor becomes an issue for the climber (but still not for the belayer).

 

Lets say the climber didn't clip a screamer onto the anchor or on the first piece, falls, and generates a factor 2 fall! Okay, now to anchor fails, and rips out! The belay will still not feel what the leader or anchor felt in this fall. A screamer on the belayer would still do nothing.

 

get it?

 

Happy new years,

 

First of all, are we confused on the setup? I'm assuming the belayer is belaying from the device on his harness, not directly off the anchor. Of course the belayer is tied into the anchor.

 

What we disagree about is basically the friction in the anchor and first piece: I think it's impossible for the belayer not to feel ALOT of the forces the leader or anchor felt, UNLESS there is a shit ton of friction in that first piece or anchor.

 

Just imagine this: the belayer is asleep and lets the rope go through. Clearly there will only be some frictional force and the leader will not be greatly slowed in his fall, and the anchor and pieces aren't going to be feeling much force at all.

 

Since I've seen belayers lifted several feet into the air by a leader fall, and felt the forces myself, I just don't believe these frictional forces are the major taking the fall. A screamer-like device on the belayer or leader, (a good idea you pointed out) seems like it would lower the peak forces in this system.

 

Screamers are not usually used except on crappy pro, A4 or suspect ice

 

Comeon, you do you really feel ok falling on any trad climb? Just the potential gear damage itself is worth avoiding, much less human safety. Most people trad climb multiple grades below their sport to avoid falling. Some people climb for years with only a one or two trad falls. Well if we could take alot of the forces out we could safely and push trad climbing more.

Edited by Marmot Prince

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i think the appropriate place for this thread is in the n00b forum, or Cafe Sensitivo...

 

there is usually so much penalty slack in most systems that it just wont matter. for what its worth, youd activate a screamer with every fall, even on toprope, which might yield a few giggles the first time but would get aweful expensive after a few pitches.

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i think the appropriate place for this thread is in the n00b forum, or Cafe Sensitivo...

 

there is usually so much penalty slack in most systems that it just wont matter. for what its worth, youd activate a screamer with every fall, even on toprope, which might yield a few giggles the first time but would get aweful expensive after a few pitches.

 

So how does having extra penalty slack make a load limiting system less useful?

 

My suggestion of a dynamic device for a belayer or climber uses a screamer as an example, ie, just to help you understand the concept. The device is not literally a screamer. There are alot of things that could pay out a little rope during a fall to the force.

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Another option instead of inserting an additional piece of equipment into the system is just to add more rope to the system to reduce and/or remove the possibility of a factor 2. To do this the belayer just lowers him self below the belay by a good amount. Say 10 to 15ft or more. This makes it impossible to take a factor two fall onto the anchor. It is kinda a pain for the belayer to get into this position but not that bad with some crafty rope skills.

 

 

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