Marmot Prince Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Can I use a no handle, two grip style plastic board to dig a snow cave or do you require a shovel? The product I'm referring to is this: http://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/camp_xls_snow_shovel.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 This is a better-than-not tool for avalanche response, but not great. It'll work well in soft snow or the immediate deposition from a soft snow avalanche (maybe not 20 minutes later and maybe not even right away if it is a hard slab avalanche) but if you are trying to dig through older snowpack or snowpack with raincrust it will not perform well and it is less than ideal for digging a snowcave even in new snow. For digging a snow cave this will not be nearly as efficient as a real shovel, and the carry-friendly shovels will not be as good as an old fashioned #10 grain scoop. (A real snow shovel will be better than the plastic scoop you propose but be careful even with a real snow shovel as it is easy to break it if you pry blocks of snow out of your cave -- but that is a different thread and the two-handled flexible shovel will not do this in the first place so you're left chipping and carving away rather than pulling out blocks.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlympicMtnBoy Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I think I could also dig a snow cave with the plastic cutting board in my kitchen. Given enough time I could also do it with a spoon. So yes, you probably can. I would much rather have a "real" snow shovel with a metal blade for most conditions though. That looks like a nice light toy to play with in good weather or if you are rando racing and need to meet some arbitrary rule requirement for "having" avy gear. I used a Snowclaw once and it was functional but not what I'd want for real emergency shelters or for avalanche debris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannible Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Agreed. You might feel like carrying one for emergencies, but if you actually plan on digging a cave to sleep in or you if you might be digging up your friend, you will expend less energy and save time with a real shovel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcg Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 ... you will expend less energy and save time with a real shovel. and a snow saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 ... you will expend less energy and save time with a real shovel. and a snow saw. Or for less weight (and energy expenditure) you could just bring a tent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 ... you will expend less energy and save time with a real shovel. and a snow saw. Or for less weight (and energy expenditure) you could just bring a tent. If you are climbing/skiing in winter or spring conditions you should have a snow shovel no matter what. A snow saw is nice too. Once you include the tent you are adding weight to the load you have to haul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Of the handfull of times I've climbed / skiied Rainier I've never brought a shovel. Since this guy is supposedly going solo, a shovel isn't going to help him for anything but digging a pointless hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 How much extra weight is that shovel? I assume an ice axe isn't a disposable part of climbing gear of course. [img:center]http://www.grivel.com/upload/products/rescue/3/varianti/7/7_l.jpg[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmot Prince Posted December 31, 2011 Author Share Posted December 31, 2011 It seems like most people posting here have never used both of the tools. I've used real shovels, and never used a snowclaw. I've read posts of people who used the snowclaws and responded favorably it. I can see how not having to leverage a huge scoop of snow is alot easier and by having two hands holding the snow closer to your centre of gravity, you can move more snow easier. I would be great to hear from people have used both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannible Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I can say that having a shovel on one particular climb just as a safety measure ended up being pretty essential for my partner and I this year in AK. We got to a summit in the dark and had to wait a couple of hours for enough light to see the descent route, and being able to dig an alcove to escape the wind made what could have been a fairly serious situation into just another brew stop. I guess one of those plastic boards would have worked alright in that situation because we weren't digging a full on cave, and the warming work of digging was kind of nice compared to just sitting there. I've never seen one of those ones that attaches to ice axes. I wish they worked on leashless tools. Tents are the way to go for most intentional camping situations, but come on, caves are fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montypiton Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I've used steel grain scoops, "avalanche" shovels of both plastic and aluminum, cooking pots, and even the adze of an ice-axe to dig snow caves. Having caved in more than one "not an option" scenario, I am leery of both plastic and aluminum tools. Steel grain scoops are HEAVY,and thus useful only for roadside snowcaving, or ski-expeditions where you can carry the thing on a sled. (but, if you can deal with the weight, they are sweet!) One of the most effective all-round tools I've used is the old army "entrenching tool" - a very small short-handled steel shovel hinged at the joint of handle and blade, so that it can be configured as a hoe. If you've never tried it, you will be amazed at how fast you can dig with one of these in hoe mode, especially in hard snow that might break an aluminum or plastic shovel. I worked on one professional ski patrol back in the eighties where this tool was required kit for avalanche control missions, and I regularly witnessed colleagues perform buried-beacon retrievals in under two minutes from "last-seen-point" in timed drills. You can get them at most sport & hardware stores, but you probably won't see one in a climbing shop... I recommend carrying a saw, too. In firm snow,an igloo may be less work than a cave, and you'll stay far drier building it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmot Prince Posted January 1, 2012 Author Share Posted January 1, 2012 Montypiton, goods points, as for the entrenching tool you mean this guy?: It does look pretty good but not sure I would use it as a grappling hook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlympicMtnBoy Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 (edited) I HAVE used both. The plastic just isn't going to get you through hard snow/ice chunks that you often encounter. In soft snow, they work great, so do a lot of things. Better than nothing, but not what I'd want in a real emergency. Snowclow actually made a metal "pro" version I was interested to check out but never have used. Edited January 1, 2012 by OlympicMtnBoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montypiton Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 same general idea - seen lots of variations on this theme. never seen one with a built-in bottle opener on the edge, though... I've seen some versions for less than $10 at discount department stores... again, the most significant feature is being able to configure it as a hoe... everything else is just bling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfinger Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Can I use a no handle, two grip style plastic board to dig a snow cave or do you require a shovel? The product I'm referring to is this: http://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/camp_xls_snow_shovel.html You meant 'can I use a SNOW SHOVEL to dig....." The f!ing thing is not a board and it does have two handles, just no shaft, which is probably confusing to ya..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cascadehigh Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I have a 15 year old Voile aluminum shovel. I have put it through the ringer countless times. I've dug snow caves in super hard pack snow (almost ice). It has saved my ass more than once. It's a little banged up but I have NEVER gone into the backcountry without it. My next shovel will be aluminum with a saw in the handle. You never know what conditions/situations you will be in someday. My shovel is a piece of essential winter gear and I need to trust it. Just my thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemoreJugs Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I love this video! My favorite part is when they use the shovel to finely chop some tuber-like food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wetslide Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I've used both as well. I have the metal "pro" model that was mentioned. As has been said, it works, but not too well in icy conditions. If it is between nothing and this, bring it. But you'll sometimes wish you had a full-function shovel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmot Prince Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 You meant 'can I use a SNOW SHOVEL to dig....." The f!ing thing is not a board and it does have two handles, just no shaft, which is probably confusing to ya..... http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shovel lolwut. What is this really about? I have a 15 year old Voile aluminum shovel. I have put it through the ringer countless times. I've dug snow caves in super hard pack snow (almost ice). It has saved my ass more than once. It's a little banged up but I have NEVER gone into the backcountry without it. My next shovel will be aluminum with a saw in the handle. You never know what conditions/situations you will be in someday. My shovel is a piece of essential winter gear and I need to trust it. Just my thoughts. Definitely sounds like you have alot of experience and some useful advice I've used both as well. I have the metal "pro" model that was mentioned. As has been said, it works, but not too well in icy conditions. If it is between nothing and this, bring it. But you'll sometimes wish you had a full-function shovel. I guess the consensus is that a snow claw can be useful in some conditions and definitely is better than nothing. I wonder if people have ever used the snowclaw for other purposes, it is advertised as a splint. Maybe it could also be used as part of a sleeping pad system in some way (since the curved shape creates an air pocket above the ground). I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertjoy Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 In an emergency you may need to dig a small snow cave or trench shelter. In the Northwest our snow pack is OFTEN very hard, with icy layers. In my experience teaching snow cave classes for many years, anything less than a metal shovel is quite likely to be insufficient to move the snow. This means that the "lightweight" plastic snow shovel is also not able to handle icy layers. When you are compelled to bivy above the treeline, it is dark, 20degrees, wind 30mph, you will rely on safety equipment which is effective. These ultra-lightweight options may be effective in Rocky Mountain powder, but around here they are most often useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markwebster Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I took a couple avalanche classes from Ray Smutek back in the eighties. Ray advised us to go to a farm supply store and buy a big aluminum grain scoop. Then buy a door knob hole saw and drill it full of holes, being careful not to weaken it too much. I've been carrying that thing ever since on our backcountry ski trips. It's dug many a cave and trench in good snow and bad. Tip: if you stomp down the snow, and then let it sit for twenty minutes before starting your cave or igloo, you will have a more stable structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccallboater Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I've also used all of the above. Plastic board thingy with two handles, plastic shovels, "standard" aluminum snow shovels (Voile, black diamond, others) grain scoops; all work, and all have their particular niche. What I most likely throw into my day pack these days is my well loved Chouinard shovel (2nd from top), the smaller one that fits on the end of a standard ice ax, with its normal handle, or my ice ax if I feel like the route justifies it. That little shovel moves lots of snow and has the perfect curve for interior snow cave work. My other shovel is a bigger Voile model just like the blue one in the picture that includes a snow saw in the handle. I always give it to the guy who forgot his so he can dig my ass out. LifeLink, Ortovox, K2, Black Diamond; they all make good ones. The grain scoop with a cut down, home made detachable handle was what I used to use for lots of years. A newer copy is what moves snow at my home in McCall . Nothing better for digging people out, but a bitch to carry. The curved plastic board thingy is ingenious, light, has many other handy uses. Replacing the back panel in a pack is one idea. For removing rock hard snow it is less than optimal, but better than one would first guess. Better than nothing, for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmot Prince Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Great post. I'm looking around and don't see the Chouinard for sale anywhere. Do you have any leads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlympicMtnBoy Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Hehe, good luck finding one of those, haven't been made for a long time. You might check out the Grivel "steel blade" option. Or if you have friends in Japan Mizo makes a titanium version: http://beyondx.exblog.jp/8912752 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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