New Poor Judgement Bolt on City Park

[stevetimetravlr]

Having led the climb dozens of times over the years, I know that the experience has been dulled for anyone climbing after that bolt was placed.

If you have the climb wired, then maybe the bolt is not for you, but for the many people that have not lead the route dozens of times. I'd lay money you clipped that bolt the first time you went up it, so busted.

[RuMR]

To be fair to Doug he did say that he's fallen on those nuts...

[rocketparrotlet]

Having led the climb dozens of times over the years, I know that the experience has been dulled for anyone climbing after that bolt was placed.

If you have the climb wired, then maybe the bolt is not for you, but for the many people that have not lead the route dozens of times. I'd lay money you clipped that bolt the first time you went up it, so busted.

 

Good point. I would lead it on nuts now, but the first time I climbed this, I'm glad the bolt was there.

[EJH]

I replaced the bolt, but I did so only after discussing the replacement with multiple climbers—not a single person suggested that it not be replaced. The unanimous opinion of those with whom I spoke was, “Please replace the bolt.” Several people opined that they felt that, since the Godzilla block fell off, the start to the second pitch of City Park was a bit dangerous, and that, therefore, having a good bolt there was warranted.

 

I’m not exactly hanging around on top of Godzilla all the time, but all the times that I have been up there, I’ve never seen anyone not clip that old bolt; hence, this suggests to me that the bolt was more than an old relic in the eyes of those who clipped it.

 

I am a little perplexed by this suggestion: “[Y]ou could have simply tapped a pin in and out of the crack a few times and created an even better nest for the nuts.” So creating a pin scar is more acceptable than replacing a bolt? Why? Because a pin scar is prettier than a bolt?

 

Long story short, with one blow from my funkness device, the bolt broke—it proved to be as sketchy as it looked. My only goal here was to replace a dangerous bolt that is routinely relied upon by climbers. Doug suggests that “The old bolt was irrelevant for a long time”; for him (and me for that matter), maybe true; however, for the many people I’ve seen clip that bolt it didn’t appear irrelevant. I would be more in agreement with Doug if I’d replaced an old bolt than no one ever clipped—that would be rather pointless; however, given that many people (newbies and otherwise) were clipping and relying on that bolt, seems like a harmless, and likely beneficial, replacement.

 

This statement (regarding the existence of the replaced bolt), too, perplexes me: “I know that the experience has been dulled for anyone climbing after that bolt was placed.” I don’t understand this. Did having the option to clip a dangerous bolt provide a better climbing experience than having today’s option of climbing the route with a good bolt to clip? If you simply don’t like having the option to clip a bolt, then I suggest not clipping the bolt. Is there a problem with the aesthetics of the new bolt placed? Did you prefer the look of the old rusty bolt to the new bolt? If you think that a better option would have been to simply remove the bolt and force climbers to protect with micronuts, fair enough, I agree that would have been one option; however, the unanimous sentiment of those I discussed this with was to replace the bolt.

 

In sum, I identified a dangerous bolt being relied upon by many climbers. In the interest of providing those who need the bolt a safer experience, I, after discussing the issue with multiple climbers and receiving their unanimous consent, replaced on my own time, with my own money, the old bolt with brand new stainless steel one.

 

I respect Doug’s opinion on this—the new bolt bugs him, he doesn’t think it belongs, he thinks it’s unnecessary. My opinion is that if a bolt is being relied upon, it’s better to have in place a safe bolt than a dangerous one (particularly on a climb frequented by less experienced climbers). I’m not sure my opinion on the matter is any more valid or correct than Doug’s. To this day, I don’t come down on any particular side of the bolting debate—I consider myself neither for nor against bolting; I do, however, consider myself pro safety, and I, and those I talked to, agreed that replacing the bolt was a good idea.

 

If Doug wishes to remove the bolt, he has my blessing; if the majority of the climbing community wishes the bolt gone, then I’ll remove it myself.

 

[Edlinger]

Thanks for replacing the bolt EJH. The trad climbers I've talked to also thank you.

[flashclimber]

FYI. DougT will not chop your bolt. He has too much class for that. Instead he will look at the bolt, shake his head, place a nut, and move up. Much like we do with most politicians and laws we don't like. Enough said on this topic.

[pope]

DougT suggests the addition of a stout bolt is superfluous (with adequate modern nut protection) and that the museum-piece relic bolt offered little more than a history lesson (only a fool would rely on it per se). I completely agree with DougT that the placement of a modern bolt fundamentally changes the nature of this pitch, providing a care-free, dumbed-down ascent in which the possibility of falling off presents zero penalty.

 

This is one of the more pathetic trends in rock climbing. Every contribution to this thread reverberates with the same message....."We want perfectly solid gear, we want to be able to fall off the crux whether we're capable of 5.7 or 5.11 and we're enthusiastic about bolting next to a protectable crack in order to accomodate our desires."

 

Why is there missing a single response where somebody with any sense of adventure and aesthetics says, "DougT, I'm inspired by your post and I'm going to try the route without the bolt. It certainly would be more aesthetic to use skill and boldness to protect this route than clipping yet another bolt."?

 

It's been a couple of years since I climbed this pitch, but if my memory is correct, the hardest move is the mantle onto a triangular shelf above the thin crack. Prior to this move, while one hangs from a monkey grip on this generous shelf, one may place superior nut protection in the crack behind the shelf, possibly more secure and certainly more aesthetic than the bolt about which DougT voices concern.

[DRep]

I’ve never seen anyone not clip that old bolt; hence, this suggests to me that the bolt was more than an old relic in the eyes of those who clipped it.

 

I've never seen anyone actually clip the bolt because anyone I climb with is smarter than that.

 

I'm dissapointed in the placement of the bolt. It should have been lower. You should pull it, apply epoxy and sand to the hole, then place it lower than the original. I do appreciate your efforts though EJH!

Edited August 6, 2011 by DRep

[el jefe]

DougT suggests the addition of a stout bolt is superfluous (with adequate modern nut protection) and that the museum-piece relic bolt offered little more than a history lesson (only a fool would rely on it per se). I completely agree with DougT that the placement of a modern bolt fundamentally changes the nature of this pitch, providing a care-free, dumbed-down ascent in which the possibility of falling off presents zero penalty.

 

This is one of the more pathetic trends in rock climbing. Every contribution to this thread reverberates with the same message....."We want perfectly solid gear, we want to be able to fall off the crux whether we're capable of 5.7 or 5.11 and we're enthusiastic about bolting next to a protectable crack in order to accomodate our desires."

 

Why is there missing a single response where somebody with any sense of adventure and aesthetics says, "DougT, I'm inspired by your post and I'm going to try the route without the bolt. It certainly would be more aesthetic to use skill and boldness to protect this route than clipping yet another bolt."?

 

It's been a couple of years since I climbed this pitch, but if my memory is correct, the hardest move is the mantle onto a triangular shelf above the thin crack. Prior to this move, while one hangs from a monkey grip on this generous shelf, one may place superior nut protection in the crack behind the shelf, possibly more secure and certainly more aesthetic than the bolt about which DougT voices concern.

 

here we have an example of an advanced case of Raindawg-Pope's disease. DougT's friends need to intervene soon or he's going to start sounding like this guy.

[akhalteke]

Many of you know I am more in the anti-bolt crowd than most. This is simply retro-bolting and is in keeping with the ethics of the area. If it had never had a bolt before, than leave it as is. It already had a bolt and all the retro-bolter did was make the bolt safer. Was the bolt capable of holding a fall when it was originally placed? Damn sure was. The route is simply as safe as it was when the original bolt was placed and for that, I thank the bolter.

 

Simply stated, this is no different than what we have done here to update much of the hardware in the "Garden." Dangerous hardware that it dangerous because of neglect is ludicrous. Climbing stupid does not make you a hardman; it just makes you stupid; or dead. (and this has happened here several times with people clipping old pitons/buttonheads less than a mile from my house here.)

[akhalteke]

Furthermore, I don't really want a "zero penalty" crag climb. The penalty for f-ing with gravity is usually death. I will save risking my ass for the high peaks and use crags for working on my technique and having a fun day away from the house/work.

[Off_White]

A minor correction in terms Scott: retro-bolt refers to adding bolts where none had been before, re-bolting is what you're referring to, the replacement of old corroded bolts with new hardware.

 

People defending the thrill of old mank seldom understand that when a fresh 1/4" rawl drive was placed, it was pretty damned good and confidence inspiring. Climbing 25 years later on the rusted crud that remains, you're not re-creating the second ascent.

 

I like that line: Climbing stupid does not make you a hardman; it just makes you stupid

 

Oh, and just a note peoples: we're in the Climbers Board, not Spray, so lets talk about the issue and not each other's perceived character flaws. Thanks

[Off_White]

Oh, and thanks to EJH for both doing some research before replacing, and registering here just to explain his actions, and not getting all riled over the question either. Folks, that's just good citizenship.

[kurthicks]

Was the bolt capable of holding a fall when it was originally placed? Damn sure was. The route is simply as safe as it was when the original bolt was placed...Dangerous hardware that it dangerous because of neglect is ludicrous.

 

agreed on all counts. It's replacement bolting and should be standard practice at all of our crags. In Washington, we seem to have a hard time recognizing that bolts wear out and should be in replaced when necessary. As Layton said, if it was good on the first ascent, it should be good now.

[Buckaroo]

Have to side with Pope on this one.

 

About one month ago I belayed someone on this pitch, he placed one 3/4 wallnut, then fell on it and it held.

 

This is a one move pitch, it's the approach pitch to Sloe Children. If you look at S.C. it has a very hard unprotected start. There used to be a pin at the start but it's been cleaned and S.C. still gets climbed. This is because of the modern standard, not only people climbing harder but using better modern gear like C-3's and HB offsets.

 

I think this pitch is just a warm up for S.C. If you can't get past the nut protected one move crux so you can then take on the unprotected start of S.C., why are you even climbing it?

 

"""Finally got around to doing this--replaced that bolt yesterday. Was hoping to use the same hole, but the old bolt broke (very easily) during removal (it was as manky as I suspected). Placed the new bolt a few inches above the old one. Hand drilled the new hole (in a downpour); the hanger's not as perfectly flush to the wall as I'd hoped, but it's bomber."""

 

So just like the pin was removed on S.C. you should have just removed this bolt. So now there is two holes where before there was only one, and you couldn't even get it straight on flat granite? What is this your practice area for drilling bolts? At the very least you should have been fully competent before even trying this. If you really knew what you were doing you would have been able to get the old bolt out and put the new one in the same place.

 

People say that Raindawg and Pope have a disease. That's the exact opposite of the truth. I'll tell you what the damn disease is. It's trying to make Index safe.

 

Index is a test piece. Stop trying to drag it down to your lame level of "safety". If you can't or won't take time to learn to place gear then go climb something else. There's plenty of stuff at every level. No need to ruin this one for the people that are capable.

 

 

[stevetimetravlr]

Hey Bucky, it was a bolt replacement. If you want to advocate chopping bolts at index, good for you, whatever, but replacing old bolts at index should be standard practice and not open to criticism.

[Buckaroo]

Agree it was bolt replacement. I'm saying it was questionable it needed replacing and not just removal. Same reason that the pin was removed on the Sloe Children pitch, it wasn't necessary.

 

I didn't advocate chopping in this case, just not placing an un-needed bolt in the first place.

[lancegranite]

This is why it's best to check with the internet before puttng up new routes.

If the guys who did the FA would have done the right thing and asked random strangers opinions in the first place none of this would be a problem.

[AlpineK]

Let's see, the fellow ask for input prior to replacing a bolt on RCNW prior to the replacement. The primary focus of the site is climbing at Index. You would think anybody who spends time climbing at Index looks at the site. They might even take part in clean up and trail maintenance. In any case you would think it was a great place to ask for input on replacing a bolt or other alterations to existing climbing routes.

 

What the guy didn't do was request input from CC prior to replacement. Apparently the work required 100% sign off from every climber and he didn't post on enough websites. Next time the gold standard is to request comments on proposed bolt replacement from: CC, Northwest Hikers, Turns All Year, King-5 News, The Seattle Times...

[wetslide]

This is why it's best to check with the internet before puttng up new routes.

If the guys who did the FA would have done the right thing and asked random strangers opinions in the first place none of this would be a problem.

Do I detect a bit of sarcasm there?

[wetslide]

And no matter what you are never going to please 100% of people 100% of the time. Gaining consensus via the internet can be a hard thing to do indeed.

[Raindawg]

Bravo for this topic: a discussion about the ethics of a single bolt.

We need THOUSANDS more of these to cover each and every one of these permanent alterations to the finite rock environment.

As such, EVERY bolt should be an ethical decision. Can you top-rope your "sport-climb"? Then get rid of all of the bolts below your upper anchors. Face it: climbing used to be at the cutting edge of environmentalism and now it's at the back of the pack.

[Buckaroo]

Here's what it's about at it's foundation.

 

Climbing is not just a game. Climbing is honing the gene pool. We are not fighting wild animals for survival. Fewer and fewer of us are going to war, and that's now being fought by remote control. We have to keep off the couch or we are dead as a race. Hence a pastime that cultivates strong bodies and minds.

 

Climbing can be boiled down to the physical and the mental.

 

Take away the risk and you take away the mental challenge.

 

The bolt drillers are taking away the mental challenge, thereby dulling the gene pool.

 

Furthermore environmental impact is a grave concern. Americans being the most profligate of consumers on the planet have to each try to do their part individually to at least partially mitigate that.

[el jefe]

Here's what it's about at it's foundation.

 

Climbing is not just a game. Climbing is honing the gene pool. We are not fighting wild animals for survival. Fewer and fewer of us are going to war, and that's now being fought by remote control. We have to keep off the couch or we are dead as a race. Hence a pastime that cultivates strong bodies and minds.

 

Climbing can be boiled down to the physical and the mental.

 

Take away the risk and you take away the mental challenge.

 

The bolt drillers are taking away the mental challenge, thereby dulling the gene pool.

 

Furthermore environmental impact is a grave concern. Americans being the most profligate of consumers on the planet have to each try to do their part individually to at least partially mitigate that.

 

Sieg Heil!

[Julian]

Here's what it's about at it's foundation.

 

Climbing is not just a game. Climbing is honing the gene pool. We are not fighting wild animals for survival. Fewer and fewer of us are going to war, and that's now being fought by remote control. We have to keep off the couch or we are dead as a race. Hence a pastime that cultivates strong bodies and minds.

 

Climbing can be boiled down to the physical and the mental.

 

Take away the risk and you take away the mental challenge.

 

The bolt drillers are taking away the mental challenge, thereby dulling the gene pool.

 

I hope this is sarcasm. Climbing is a bullshit fun activity people do because they enjoy it, not some vital cog in human evolution.

 

Furthermore environmental impact is a grave concern. Americans being the most profligate of consumers on the planet have to each try to do their part individually to at least partially mitigate that.

 

What causes more environmental impact: the strip mining for metal ore and factory production required to produce all that trad gear, or the comparatively minor amount of raw material and production needed to produce bolts? Note: I'm not bashing trad climbing in favor of sport climbing, I enjoy both, but an environmental argument is most definitely a non-starter when it comes to elevating trad above sport.