cowstail question

[B Deleted_Beck]

howdy

 

why do all of the 4-knot cowstails i see use figates for the top two knots? the idea of a 4-knot cowstail is redundancy.... so why use a knot you can't expansion-load as your redundant knot? if the bight fails, your line is now expansion loaded on a knot that can collapse under expansion load. the figure 8 also uses a lot of rope..

 

the knot that comes to mind, to me, is the alpine butterfly.. you can load any end and in any direction (so long as you don't expand the loop), and it uses less rope. and, if i'm not mistaken, the alpine butterfly is stronger than the figate.

 

where's the error in my thinking?

 

thanks

[Alasdair]

It really makes no difference which knot you use. The bight is not going to break. I use a overhand. The only error in your thinking is that you are over thinking it. The rope is almost never the weakest link in the system, so you should not spend that much time worrying about it breaking.

[B Deleted_Beck]

but if your attitude is "the loops wont fail," whats the point of using the 4-knot method to begin with? might as well go back to 3- less weight, less bulk.

[kurthicks]

i have no idea what you're even talking about.

[B Deleted_Beck]

i have no idea what you're even talking about.

 

[RaisedByPikas]

Yeah I'm not really sure why you need the two alpine butterfly knots on the quick link. It looks bulky. What are you using this contraption for?

Edited May 27, 2011 by RaisedByPikas

[chris]

i have no idea what you're even talking about.

 

 

Is this for ice tool tethers or an anchor system?

[Farrgo]

Maybe I'm crazy but I've always used a butterfly or simple overhand to make a cowtail. I almost never use it if I think a fall is likely and if so, always double up on the biners.

[B Deleted_Beck]

i have no idea what you're even talking about.

 

 

Is this for ice tool tethers or an anchor system?

 

it's an individual tether system... lots of different uses.. i think cavers "invented" the cowstail for traversing fixed/knotty lines, but use has expanded into rescue, rope-access, aiding, etc.. anywhere having quick, ready tethering outweighs the extra bulk and weight.

[builder206]

Can someone give me a reference to a textbook about this? The explanations aren't helping, I need context. I'm totally out to sea about this.

 

Why not use a personal anchor? (seems like a "tether" to me)

[counterfeitfake]

The thing in the picture looks way more complicated than you need. Why not a single figure eight into the quick link?

 

That's if you're going to use it at all. For traversing a fixed line I'd be more likely to use two daisy-chains, or just slings, or even one, with two carabiners on it.

[JosephH]

why fuck around?

 

 

 

[B Deleted_Beck]

why fuck around?

 

 

 

great for JUST fall protection... but cowstails are also for hanging. there are some manufactured cowstails out there, but they're not always what a guy needs. making your own lets you make the tails as long or short as you need, and lets you put whatever ends on you want without extra/wasted gear.

[JosephH]

Yeah, a guy might need It, but not for climbing. It isn't climbing gear or a climbing topic beyond the fact rope and carabiners are involved. Maybe a caving topic I suppose, but not climbing.

[RaisedByPikas]

Joseph is right, you don't need this setup for anything climbing related aside from via ferata, its just too bulky. You can get away with a purcell prussik if you want easy adjustibility or just a double length sling with a knot or two tied into it. If you need to traverse a fixed line for whatever reason then you can just add an extra biner to the system. In any case a quick link around your belay loop will be a pain to deal with once the threads don't operate smoothly anymore. You can also probably tie this thing with 6 or 7 mil chord instead of a static line scrap. And those double fisherman's worry me a bit, those things can come untied from large diameter chord pretty easy.

Edited May 29, 2011 by RaisedByPikas

[bstach]

i have no idea what you're even talking about.

 

 

I have used this setup on ropes courses and descending rope ladders for caving. The one I used had two separate strands, instead of a single strand of rope and a pear biner instead of a quick link (steel ones when on ropes course). I have also heard this setup called "crab claws".

 

I would not use this rock climbiing.

[kurthicks]

or lobster claws.

[B Deleted_Beck]

i personally wouldnt drag this clattering and snagging along on a sport route.. that's not what it's for.

 

i'm just wondering, for those of you who do actually use cowstails at work or play, why the figure 8 seems to be the knot everyone uses. and i'm glad to see a couple guys seem to agree that it's not the knot.

[JosephH]

For work I can't imagine an employer not wanting you rigged professionally...

 

[B Deleted_Beck]

depends on the employer, and the industry. rope-access companies are often all of two or three guys strong, and rig ALL their own shit.

 

you can't hang on the above... that's a two-leash fall arrestor, not a cowstail. different concept.

[RaisedByPikas]

You can hang on screamer type devices (i think). They are rated to start deploying at something like 2kn. So unless you are a candidate for biggest loser you'll be ok hanging on these systems.

 

But since you seem to know so much about the industry why are you asking for our opinion? What do you actually intend to use one of these systems for? Where are you reading that people use two knots for redundancy? Are there any horse socks? Is anybody listening to me?

Edited May 29, 2011 by RaisedByPikas

[JosephH]

you can't hang on the above

 

You can definitely hang from the above even if that's not what it was designed for.

 

You could use a Bypass Lanyard like below, but there are very few applications where I'd leave the ground with one.

 

[builder206]

 

When I did construction work many years ago we called these "positioning hooks." Instead of nylon the legs were chain.