rob Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 not saying you (we) don't have a reason to have a beer and reminsce on the osamas of yesteryear, but you are missing the moral relativism element - the folks who cheered on 9/11 were as convinced as you are that the murders de juor were justified - who's actually right? Really, you can't tell the difference? I get your point about "how do you really know who is right" and it's a fun philosophical dead-end that leads to all sorts of logical games, but in this one case, I think there should be enough data to give you at least *some* idea which one is most likely right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 not saying you (we) don't have a reason to have a beer and reminsce on the osamas of yesteryear, but you are missing the moral relativism element - the folks who cheered on 9/11 were as convinced as you are that the murders de juor were justified - who's actually right? Really, you can't tell the difference? I get your point about "how do you really know who is right" and it's a fun philosophical dead-end that leads to all sorts of logical games, but in this one case, I think there should be enough data to give you at least *some* idea which one is most likely right. remind me who was cheering on 9/11? pissed off saudis for us supporting hte absolute monarchs who rule over them? iranians who remember us doing the same in their country? palestinians who notice the "made in america" brands on the helicopters and tanks that have shot them up? again, i'm not saying i'm on their side, just that i understand the source of their anger and see it having the same validity as ours, and that i'd like all of us to move beyond the hairless monkey dynamic we're so impossibly hard-wired into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 is there any evidence that celebrating the exaction of revenge brings closure? I heard on the boob tube it was a myth. Is that true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 remind me who was cheering on 9/11? pissed off saudis for us supporting hte absolute monarchs who rule over them? iranians who remember us doing the same in their country? palestinians who notice the "made in america" brands on the helicopters and tanks that have shot them up? again, i'm not saying i'm on their side, just that i understand the source of their anger and see it having the same validity as ours, and that i'd like all of us to move beyond the hairless monkey dynamic we're so impossibly hard-wired into. I understand why they were mad at America, too, and I accept the validity of that. However, I do not believe the bombing of the WTC was a valid output for their anger. Do you? And celebrating that sort of attack is quite a bit more different than celebrating the capture of the guy who planned it. IMO. Bringing up carpet bombing of Europe or whatever is a neat logical distraction, but we're not talking about the relative merits of WWII Allied tactics (which may or may not have been "just as bad" or whatever). We're talking about this specific instance. I remember after 9/11, I wanted to kill him myself. And while I accept that his death has not made us any safer, and even though it took 10 years, I'm still glad it eventually happened and I think that every guy on the team that got him deserves free drinks from each of us for the rest of their lives. It's cute to make philosophical arguments about the relative moralistic equivalences of two opponents in a war. But just because they have similarities doesn't mean they are both "equally right" or whatever. This is the same logical trap agnostics fall into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 is there any evidence that celebrating the exaction of revenge brings closure? I heard on the boob tube it was a myth. Is that true? It's often and conveniently forgotten that OBL had stated political demands for the US: 1)Get out of the Muslim world (Saudi Arabia, at that time) 2)Stop supporting Israel (against the Palestinians) It's actually a reasonable agenda that many American's support. There might have been some room for improvement in his methods, however...they were a bit broad brush. Whether revenge is 'good for you' is entirely cultural. The New Yorker had a good piece on Papua New Guinea's has a long standing code of personal revenge. In it, a fellow who crippled his uncle (who had committed some previous offense in the distant past) claimed only to feel "happy" about it. No remorse, no guilt at all. Cultural norms determine whether certain acts, whether killing a slave or puking on your date, are acceptable or not. Still, there seems to be some moral evolution amongst the angry hairless monkeys and it does seem to trend towards greater tolerance, desire to understand, and willingness to engage with folks further and further from family, friends, tribe, nationality. Violence, obviously, is usually a setback in this progression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I understand why they were mad at America, too, and I accept the validity of that. However, I do not believe the bombing of the WTC was a valid output for their anger. Do you? And celebrating that sort of attack is quite a bit more different than celebrating the capture of the guy who planned it. IMO. Bringing up carpet bombing of Europe or whatever is a neat logical distraction, but we're not talking about the relative merits of WWII Allied tactics (which may or may not have been "just as bad" or whatever). We're talking about this specific instance. I remember after 9/11, I wanted to kill him myself. And while I accept that his death has not made us any safer, and even though it took 10 years, I'm still glad it eventually happened and I think that every guy on the team that got him deserves free drinks from each of us for the rest of their lives. It's cute to make philosophical arguments about the relative moralistic equivalences of two opponents in a war. But just because they have similarities doesn't mean they are both "equally right" or whatever. This is the same logical trap agnostics fall into. being an agnostic type guy, i reckon i'm in that trap you describe - in the grand sense there is no right and wrong, just weak and strong - it's a fucked state of affairs that really is best dealt w/ though a combination of strong drink and wilderness wandering obviously there were other ways to get the usa's attention beyond the 9/11 approach - i don't know if any of them, including the 9/11 way, would work. certainly 9/11 was stupid and ultimately pretty damn counterproductive for the evil-doer's aims. tvash, you forgot osama's demand that the usa accept islam as well while the 2 demadns you listed sound reasonable enough, i don't think homeboy was the type that could much have been reasoned with, do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 bin Laden never demanded that we Yanks convert to Da One Tru Faith, actually. Other's filled in that blank for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 would have to do an exhaustive intrewubs search - i do remember reading one of osama's rants from 2002 that did include a call for the usa to adopt islam - it must be in the memory hole somewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 article here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver the top of the list of demands: "(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you? (1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 would have to do an exhaustive intrewubs search - i do remember reading one of osama's rants from 2002 that did include a call for the usa to adopt islam - it must be in the memory hole somewhere How could he have ranted in 2002 when he died in 2001? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 (1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam" (2) The second thing we are calling you to is...to get yo' drank on, Biaatch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Sounds more like an invitation than a demand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 what is a gentelmen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Layback Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 We haven't *won* by any stretch of the imagination, but I like this video/speech: [video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRfXfi5Kapw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Almost every word used in the original version of facts has since been denied; a state of affair presumably due to someone's incompetence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 And who's version would that be? There were many. The first report I read stated he'd been killed by a missile. A very small one, I guess. This is to be expected. A reporter gets wind of the killing, gets sprung, and starts to fill in the blanks. Best to ignore most of the details of a major news story for a few days until the facts start revealing themselves. The larger question is: if Seal Team 6 were in the room, would you question their judgement regarding the decisions they made? Would you ask them if they did the right thing? The fact that a bunch of reporters and even some politicians got some relatively minor details wrong seems neither unusual nor all the relevant. What concerns me much more is the fate of that Tawainese vid...where did it go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 I am talking about the government version. If anyone believes that communication at that level is left to chance, especially about the War On Terra and OBL, I also have a few bridges for sale cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 What 'inaccuracies' specifically have got your panties in a bunch this morning? OBL shot 'unarmed'? Tough sympathy sell, that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 "my panties in a bunch" about, at best, the gross incompetence shown in handling major PR? "sympathy"? laughable. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/may/05/obama-bin-laden-pr-defeat Obama's Bin Laden coup risks becoming PR defeat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 A link? What are YOUR complaints? You know, straight, specific answer. From your perspective. Otherwise, you're just dogpiling on some jaggoff article written by any old tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Take all the time you need to re-read the article so you can get your opinions in order.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 The article makes the case that US officials can't seem to get their story straight about basic facts, which combined with total lack of evidence provided opens the door to pretty much anything including this farce being manufactured in Hollywood. Some solid evidence may yet surface but I haven't seen anything conclusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) A Note from the Real World: Obama could go on camera taking a dump on a kitten and not fuck this one up. He whacked the Modern Day Hitler, for Christ's sake. Nobody gives a flying fuck about whether OBL was holding an AK, his cock, or a sock puppet at the time. Edited May 5, 2011 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) the article was to show you that many people are disturbed by inconsistencies, not that I agreed with the author that the Obama admin was messing up (although that seems to be your sole concern). I have already noted the astounding lack of skepticism so it is likely that little can change public perception at this point. I don't care whether he was holding a gun or not so far, but I do care that uncertainty is all we have. Edited May 5, 2011 by j_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 The article makes the case that US officials can't seem to get their story straight about basic facts, which combined with total lack of evidence provided opens the door to pretty much anything including this farce being manufactured in Hollywood. Some solid evidence may yet surface but I haven't seen anything conclusive. I guess we could all demand OBL's long-form birth certificate. I mean, why won't he release the death photos????? WHAT IS HE HIDING???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.