eldiente Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Ueli Steck. " With my dietician I set my ideal body weight for about 67kg. When I climbed the Matterhorn I weighed 64kg. Which means I was both lighter and faster." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearbreeder Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 i havent seen any fat high level climbers at their peak in the modern era ... maybe there are ... but most seem to be pretty trim, just like any athletes these days back in the day people use to have a few smokes before running in the olympics as well ... doesnt work too well in the modern era i can personally attest that id rather be thin and trim than not ... my big ginourmous belly and muscles are just extra weight ... not that one cant climb with a belly, its just easier and wastes less energy without i used to be and still am in many ways one of those gumbies who think "oh i got muscles and can go 10 rounds in a ring, so climbing is a cinch" ... only to get destroyed my some stick thin kid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 If one person spends 10 hours training and 100 hours climbing and another person spends 100 hours training and 10 hours climbing, who is doing it right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 If one person spends 10 hours training and 100 hours climbing and another person spends 100 hours training and 10 hours climbing, who is doing it right? depends on what that 10hr of climbing is. And maybe some people enjoy the 100 hr training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldiente Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Before I go back to getting fat at my desk job. A lot of this talk is just academic, for most of us (myself included) a few extra pounds in the belly or in the rucksack isn't going to make any difference. I'm not real anal about gear weight, but I do notice gear that gets in the way and monkeying with gear eats away at climbing time. Examples of this that come to mind are packs that hit you in the head while climbing, shirts that ride up and leave an exposed gap for cold air by the waist, gloves that are hard to get off when wet, helmets that block my view etc etc. For these sort of things, I'd rather have gear that was a tad heavier but got out of my way when climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 If one person spends 10 hours training and 100 hours climbing and another person spends 100 hours training and 10 hours climbing, who is doing it right? No training session exists in a vacuum. It is influenced by what came before, by the objective of the training, by the seasonal or annual plan, and, of course, by the needs of the individual(s) for whom the training is prescribed. Absolutely for the novice climber "just climbing" is the single best way to see gains. However depending on one's goals "just climbing" at some point may or may not be the best way to reach them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa_D Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 (edited) Interesting thread! To add to the "fast" part of the equation: consider fueling (eating) for performance and recovery. I'm spending a lot of time racing bikes these days, and have found that nutrition before, during, and after races is a big deal, especially in stage races where you will compete 4 times in 3 days. Perhaps applying a similar logic to climbing would help. Some people seem to struggle with blood sugar and energy levels more than others; I tend to bonk if I don't keep energy coming in. During climbs, that means I keep food in my pockets and take a bite of an energy bar every 30-60 minutes no matter how I feel. Cyclists usually emphasize eating lots of carbohydrates in the days leading up to the event (not white bread! fruit, whole grains, root vegetables, legumes, etc). During the race, they try to take in some form of calories at least every 30 minutes, in the form of a sports drink, gel, gummy candy, or solid food if possible. Some people try to take something in after every hard attack or hill. Eating immediately after the finish is crucial, since you have a 2 hour window for optimal glycogen replacement. Post-race food always needs to include protein and fat. Chocolate milk, surprisingly, is one of the best things to down immediately after finishing, followed by a regular meal as soon as you can stomach it. In multi-day climbing trips, I think that fueling for performance & recovery is just as crucial because you are depending on being at 100% for the next day's effort and need to be mentally sharp as well. Since climbing efforts are usually longer and at a steadier, lower aerobic level, that changes what you can eat during climbs. I'd enjoy hearing what top level climbers do for food/drink during and after climbs. The challenge of saving weight/space with food is an issue unique to climbing.. you can't exactly carry a gallon of chocolate milk up to basecamp, but I suppose you could bring powdered chocolate and milk. Regarding the "light" aspect: moderation! Shedding a few lb of extra body fat and slowly trimming gear should do it for most of us.. I started out climbing in 2006 with middle of the road gear and some extra body fat. Riding my bike 12 hours a week has resulted in losing 15-20 lb of body fat in the past 2 years. As things wear out (harness, rope, etc), I usually try to buy a lighter version when reasonable. My pack weight has probably dropped about 5-10 lbs, meaning that I'm up to 30 lb lighter when I'm climbing compared to when I started out. As a result, last season I gained a grade in trad climbing and put up faster times on alpine ascents with hardly any climbing-specific effort! Those big leaps in ability are nice, but if I want to see more improvement as a climber I will probably have to put in the time and effort to crag and do alpine climbs. Edited April 11, 2011 by Lisa_D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 I would suggest your post race food should avoid fat at least for the first hour as glycogen synthesis is reduced when fat is included in the initial stages of the process. That said, intramuscular triglyceride (IMTG) restoration is slowed when fat intake is reduced. Because the window during which one may efficiently replenish muscle glycogen is short I concentrate on doing that first, then deal with the IMTG issue, which takes longer any way. I add considerable fat to later meals because the energy yield per volume is much greater than the other macronutrients so I am more likely to reach calorie targets before I stop eating. Chocolate milk should be considered a last ditch substitute for a true recovery drink given it's sugar content. Anything that roughly matches a 75 to 25 carb to protein ration (Endurox has actually patented this ratio) is a viable recovery drink. Generally the cleaner the better and as most chocolate milk brands out there have HFCS I'd argue you can do much better for a little more $. All that said eating a balanced diet will more than adequetly cover your protein needs (1.2g per kg of body weight per day) with the expetion of bigger days which most of dont do as much as we should do any ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavidjr Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Premise of UK article that was linked is, that "light is right" is view that emerged in 1980s. That's hooey. Am looking at account of 1892 non-hut trip of Mummery and two companions in which total kit, including hemp rope, all camping gear etc., was 25 pounds. That's a bit more than 12 pounds per person. They were in vicinity of Mount Blanc, probably working on a first ascent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdietsch Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 i havent seen any fat high level climbers at their peak in the modern era .. Are you talking to me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted April 11, 2011 Author Share Posted April 11, 2011 Emerged in the '80s? Now that is an interesting detail I seemed to have missed The author of the comment (bivy gear and all) incorrectly credited to Chouinard? Try Willo: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willo_Welzenbach "Even the best professionals of today would be hard pressed to ride a bicycle halfway across the country then climb any of the European Classic North faces with modern gear instead of the gear they relied on in the '30s. That kind of fitness and mental sobriety few still own today." Recovery, diet? Endurance sports have a long history of literature about recovery and diet. Try the better texts on longer tris, running and bike racing. Joel Friel is a good place to start and offers many more detailed references in his published writings. http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/blog.html "Others that are beneficial for the bike and run are reducing excess body weight and using lighter equipment. Then there are sport-specific efficiency improvers. The most notable is aerobars on the TT or tri bike along with other aerodynamic equipment such as wheels, helmet and bike frame. As a swimmer you can improve economy by improving the flexibility of your shoulders and feet, especially the ability to point your toes. Interestingly, the research shows that having less flexibility in the ankle joint makes for more economical running as this appears to improve the release of energy stored in your calf muscle with each footstrike." Easy to see that anyone can can look at alpine climbing with a more critical eye. Training to improve an athlete's performance obeys the principles of training: specificity, overload, recovery, adaptation and reversibility. Climbing to train, is the specificity of training for climbing, and could still be argued as the best training for climbing, depending on what you define as climbing and your own goals. But identifing goals within your climbing and wanting to improve performance may lead you away for specificity alone. Guys like Colin Haley seem to do just fine with Specificity and have been known to make fun of the cross fit crowd in public. Twight didn't make his bones by working out in a gym not even Gym Jones. More likely front to back traverses across the Mt Blanc massif. With limited time in the hills, training for goals becomes another arena...like your garage. Makes some sense if that appeals to you. Working out indoors has as much appeal to me as a stationary bike. Makes sense and good time managment. But I still only somehting I do when I absolutely have to....like when i can't walk. No doubt i could be stronger and leaner....but I'd rather leave the indoor stuff to diet and recovery YMMV Much of climbing is between your ears. Knowing what is available and out there to help you should be part of your "gear". Take what is useful and leave the rest...for the next project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa_D Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 I would suggest your post race food should avoid fat at least for the first hour as glycogen synthesis is reduced when fat is included in the initial stages of the process. That said, intramuscular triglyceride (IMTG) restoration is slowed when fat intake is reduced. Because the window during which one may efficiently replenish muscle glycogen is short I concentrate on doing that first, then deal with the IMTG issue, which takes longer any way. I add considerable fat to later meals because the energy yield per volume is much greater than the other macronutrients so I am more likely to reach calorie targets before I stop eating. Chocolate milk should be considered a last ditch substitute for a true recovery drink given it's sugar content. Anything that roughly matches a 75 to 25 carb to protein ration (Endurox has actually patented this ratio) is a viable recovery drink. Generally the cleaner the better and as most chocolate milk brands out there have HFCS I'd argue you can do much better for a little more $. Interesting.. thanks for the info, some of that was new to me and sounds really applicable! I have a renewed interest in improving my sports nutrition because I recently experienced a HORRIBLE bonk after a road race and was shot for the rest of the stages that weekend. So I've been reading up on it and asking some of the elite riders what they use.. many of them are all about drinking chocolate milk (the kind w/o HFCS)! None of them said they waited 30 minutes before taking in fat. I think a big reason choc milk is popular is because it goes down easily. I'm going to try some drink mixes, but I'm a poor grad student and they are expensive.. What about skim milk with some sugar or honey mixed in? Joel Friel suggested that as a cheap recovery drink. Perhaps I could use that for normal training days and save the expensive stuff for stage races. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfinger Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Interesting LisaD! Food has gotten quite a bit better, lighter and more compact too. Pretty nice to have the hydration bladder and gels and be able to just keep tooling along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfinger Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 i havent seen any fat high level climbers at their peak in the modern era .. Are you talking to me? Guess you haven't been to many ice climbing festivals..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavidjr Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I must have misread the first subhead "So what HAS changed in alpine climbing?" and author's immediate answer: "From a myopic perspective, two things: gear and attitude." And extended elaboration on this theme. I've always had trouble with basic reading comprehension. Sorry. Due to my disability, I still think it's a bit of fantasy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielHarro Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 My good friend who is an Olympic XC skiier prefers Chololate Cake and or Pizza on long 25-50K races. I think everyone has their own opinions, seems to be a lot of research out their but some of the top athletes just eat what they can stomach and what they like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 The Dean Karnazes Diet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdietsch Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Guess you haven't been to many ice climbing festivals..... Nope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Can you move faster with a pack that's 5lbs lighter? Can you move faster with 5lb less fat? Is it possible that the climber at 160lbs and 10% body fat has any advantage over the 155lb climber at 7% body fat? How about an unplanned bivy? Lighter clothing and sleeping bag? How about when you run out of food on a 20 hour push? I'm all for being as fit as possible, just playing devil's advocate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted April 12, 2011 Author Share Posted April 12, 2011 Great article Jon, thanks. When it comes to climbing few have all the answers and as Daniel suggests at the highest levels the answers are generally subjective and unique for each individual. Turns out that likely is the case at any level of fitness. Nutrition for example. If you hang out in the Triathlon crowd long a couple of things becomes clear. Distance equals time. In easy terms a Sprint race is an hr or so. A Olympic 2 and change. A Half 4 or 5 and a full IM 8+ for most. When you start racing past 2hrs you really have to manage your nutrition and hydration. Even the one hr events will demand it at the top levels, even age group events. That is most generally learned pre race and certainly can be easily learned while training. Most climbers don't run the pace of a Triathlon, ever. (there are a few exceptions but they are few) By the time you get done with a a couple of 1/2 or full IM distance races you know what your body can/must take in and still keep working. That might be Gu (usually isn't) or an Oreo. Lots of documented info available as the "best" way to train, eat, build and recover for endurance events. Personally I think Recovery is the key. But no doubt a well rounded base of knowledge that tells you what is suppose to work in all phases of training is the best place to start. I leave those discussions to the the fitness Bloggers. John Frieh's blog for example or his mentor's commercial web site, Gym Jones. Half way through the run on a 1/2 is a tough place to figure out what will work for you outside the box. Bonking on a 50 mile ride 10 miles from home is another one that can give you a good lesson on nutrition and recovery. My thought is, if you want to learn something from the experience, it is better to have those kinds of experiences in a controled environment than while in the mountains. One could easily argue that all this is nonsense. Be it gear, nutrition etc. The most important part of climbing, is actually getting outside and climbing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 My good friend who is an Olympic XC skiier prefers Chololate Cake and or Pizza on long 25-50K races. Makes perfect sense, I prefer chocolate cake and pizza all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavidjr Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Golly, I didn't know that being fit was such a good idea! I always thought that carrying a lot of unnecessary weight made me go faster! This is all so insightful! Real food for thought! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearbreeder Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 (edited) losing weight off my ginourmous belly - just a matter of time and willpower - might actually save money as i eat less - might actually live longer ... didnt they say the greatest predictor of health is waist fat? - makes me look younger so i can still pick up those yung hawt gurls - gives me better sex drive - feels like you actually achieved something - great story for friends and family ... lost X lbs - get me in better shape ... not to mention i might even climb more losing it going lighter gear wise - dont bring shiet i dun need - pull out the credit card ... cha ching! - allows me to buy all that new yuppie gear with dead birds on it - doesnt make me look any younger ... but im sure there are some mountain goats looking for sugar daddies with the latest fashionable outerwear - sex drive? .... pfft .... thats what viagra is for - i feel like i achieved something after spending all that moola shopping - get to show up family, friends about how light and fast you are despite your ginourmous belly - bahhh ... who need to be in shape ... ill just summon the power of red bull when i need to send ... dont get me wrong ... the lighter the gear weight the bettah ... the question is why not work on that big belly first (assuming you have one) ... i find it funny when some fat guy on a trail tells me that my gear weights too much ... i just stare at his belly Edited April 13, 2011 by bearbreeder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 A 50lb pack on a 200lb person will be just as heavy and grueling on the same person who lost 50 lbs of fat. Lose the weight on both. If you want train for a climb, do similar stuff. Want to climb 5.12 cracks on granite. You have to be climbing cracks on granite outside of your comfort level - a lot. Indian creek on spring break won't do you the same favor as Yosemite. Want to climb Rainier car to car? Slap on a heavy pack and grind up hills. If you don't have a goal, your training will be more difficult. So pick a goal. The "other" climbs you want to do will not suffer. Train for them specifically later. All the gym jones and crossfit in the world, as well as the lightest gear will not make you a better technical climber. That said, all the sport climbing in the world won't get you up Denali any faster. You have to pick what kind of climber you want to be. Uli Steck or Chris Sharma? In their home court, the other would be a weakling. If you are like me and enjoy it all and still have ridiculous hope of being great, then pick your weakest link and go from there. Are you 100lbs overweight? Lose the weight. Is your gear circa 1960 REI? Get new gear. Can you cruise moderate trad all day but get shut down on 5.11s? Go cragging. Can you crank at Smith but the West Ridge of Forbidden takes you three days? Sign up for crossfit and slog up hills. I am a gear WHORE. That said, I have NEVER EVER been shut down because of my gear. 70% of the time it's mental fortitude (not sucking it up and getting it done) or poor planning (i.e. I want to do route A even though route B has better weather,etc), and the other 30% is technique (considering I chose routes within my "grade"), partner issues, weather, or bad luck. If I just sucked it up and didn't care how tired I was going to be at work on monday or being afraid of falling, my success rate would tripple. So I started doing more crossfit, and high intensity stuff to up my work capacity and increase my energy/stamina. Sure helped. Now if I could only climb that goddamned red camalot off hand routes at indian creek and not be afraid of falling. If you take a look at the folks who are your peers, but are much much better than you, take a look at their lifestyle. I guarantee they have jobs (or no jobs) that allow them to climb more than you and have heavier gear. The other thing that makes us crazy is the person with natural talent and/or a diminished fear mechanism. And if you are suffering over this thread looking for answers, like me, you probably don't have it either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 I know one thing on the 8000'ders the only people that survive the 3 day bivy in the death zone are the ones that are overweight to start with. Case in point the 1986 K2 disaster, Bauer and Diemberger the only survivors had guts bigger than the ones in your pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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