billcoe Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I've always wondered why fabric dye wouldn't be the bees knees for marking the middle of a climbing rope. Just get some black liquid Rit dye that is designed to not hurt fabrics of any type and dip the middle in. Done. I had some back and forth Emails with Michael Beal back when concerning the use of middle markers as an issue. He thought that the tests that they did to ascertain that you don't want to mark the middle with a marker were over the top and overblown. Black Diamond later tested the marking causing failures and this is the result: http://web3.bdel.com/scene/beta/qc_kp_archive.php#120308 ie, they couldn't get it to break at the Sharpie mark but thought you probably shouldn't use one...just because. "I don’t think Sharpies or any other permanent markers have really been proven to actually damage nylon—short-term or long-term. However, I can’t recommend them for use on rope either because the manufacturers will not and cannot guarantee that the marker will always be free of possibly harmful chemical ingredients. In other words, they can change the formula on a whim and none of us would be the wiser." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Ahhhh , found the copy of that Beal letter to me: "9th September, 2004 ROPE MARKER - There have never been tests conducted by the German Alpin Club together with 2 of our competitors. - The tests made by the German Alpine Club with the “Sharpie” are old. - Mammut made tests with the “Rope Marker”, placing a greatly excessive quantity of ink on a great length of their ropes. Results : no change in the static strength of their ropes (which proves no chemical attack of the nylon by the ink), significant decrease of the number of drops if you place the inky zone in the orifice plate of the test rig. This decrease is due to the large quantity of ink which involves a great stiffening of the rope, and, therefore, an impossibility to fold correctly in the orifice plate. Note that after a few hours of use, the excess of ink eliminates, the rope recovers its softness and then its dynamic properties. Furthermore, you must ink a long zone of rope to be able to make the test. If not, with the deformation of the rope due to a successive falls, it is not possible to have the inked zone in the orifice plate during several successive falls. So if you mark a rope normally (10 cm for example) you can’t even achieve the test, and therefore you will never find a number of falls decrease. In the same report Mammut said that the middle mark applied in the factory on Beal ropes did not affect their number of falls. - This publication from Mammut was purely commercial against Beal. It is interesting to note that Mammut now mark the middle of their ropes with ink… - They tried to make people believe that Lanex was associated to those tests. It is totally wrong. The proof is given by the fact that Lanex officialy approved the use to the Beal “Rope Marker” on their ropes. See the attached agreement. - The “Rope Marker” has also been tested and approved by other manufacturers, including Blue Water and New England. Agreements attached. - It is strange to note that only the UIAA notification of April 2002 is published. The addendum of June 2002 is forgotten ! In this addendum the conclusion is clear : the rope markers do not present any danger to climbers, so long as they are used sparingly on the ropes of the manufacturer marketing this rope marker, or if they have been approved by the manufacturer of the rope. See this addendum attached. - You may wonder why the Beal “Rope Marker” seems to affect the Mammut ropes and not the ropes from manufacturers who approved it…. - The ink of the “Rope Marker” is the same as the one we are using to mark the middle of our ropes. We remind you that even Mammut said that Beal ropes were not affected by this mark ! - The Rope Marker is supplied with the list of the manufacturers who approved it." Note this part: "In this addendum the conclusion is clear : the rope markers do not present any danger to climbers, so long as they are used sparingly on the ropes of the manufacturer marketing this rope marker, or if they have been approved by the manufacturer of the rope." I don't know where the rest of the addendum's Beal alludes too are though...hmmm, sorry dudes. Beal does make and sell a rope marker. http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302691399&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442621248 Buy it and you'll have enough that you can fix your buddies and folks like Wallstein up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Have sharpied every Mammut Supersafe I've owned sooner or later given Mammut's weak middle marking - no problem so far, but then again, they're Supersafes which are a very burly rope to begin with. Not sure I'd be doing it to a 9.2. Also, when I have the slightest doubt about where the middle is - night or day - I get ahold of both ends and lower it from those ends to the middle so there is absolutely no doubt regardless of pattern or markings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 I think if you're really really worried about marker on your ropes you should probably stock up on Potassium Iodide too just to be safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgleighton Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 I've got a New England(Maxim) rope. Tag that came with it said you can use an Avery Marks-A-Lot. Said that they had done testing and showed no ill affects on their ropes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_m Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 I think its important if you buy a duodess rope, to get it in contrasting colors and with the most extreme pattern change you can find. My friend has one that is all dark colors and minor pattern change, and rapping off in the dark can be difficult to distinguish the change. This +1. Dark BiColor ropes are VERY hard to spot pattern changes on. See Joseph's picture of the Maxim above for a great example of what DOESN'T work. Same goes for a black mark on dark ropes. Again, very hard to spot. While the bright ropes might look dirty faster and be obnoxious to some, they're FAR better to work with when trying to find a middle mark. I do find that a PROPERLY color contrasted Bi-Color is a bit easier to use than a black mark AND can make pulling raps a bit easier if one side is the MUST PULL side for various reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 I think its important if you buy a duodess rope, to get it in contrasting colors and with the most extreme pattern change you can find. My friend has one that is all dark colors and minor pattern change, and rapping off in the dark can be difficult to distinguish the change. This +1. Dark BiColor ropes are VERY hard to spot pattern changes on. See Joseph's picture of the Maxim above for a great example of what DOESN'T work. Funny, I've never had the slightest trouble finding the change in this rope and I'm on my second one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevetimetravlr Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 You perhaps have no trouble finding the middle of your rope Joe, but you may have issues finding your stoppers, since you left them this winter on Snag ledge and I have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 I think if you're really really worried about marker on your ropes you should probably stock up on Potassium Iodide too just to be safe. Don't be so damn complacent. I was out with 2 otherwise competent folks @ 15 years back, one I use to guide with, an AMGA fully certified and body-cavity searched bonafide guide - who set the (unmarked) rope for the 3 of us at the anchor. I was fucking around backing up the anchor while he set the rope then other dude connected and rapped down. Rope would have reached if the middle had been at or even close to the anchors...no one knows what went wrong. Dude got down a ways and was PISSED that one end reached quite well and then some: but the other was easily 20 feet off the deck. He caught it but that's how crap happens. You'd think I'd know better but I'm out with Adam last year and I KNOW that the damn rope will reach, its a fucking bicolor Mammut and I pulled it after a new route we had finished. We needed the last rap to the base and we both ducked and covered for all the rocks and crap raining down, then with the unsettled dirt in eye syndrome, Adam get on rappel and (thank the dear lord) after committing notices that the rope doesn't hit on both ends. We figured that it readjusted itself as the dirt clods were raining on us. Here he is after having survived the stupidity of neither of us double checking a bi color rope being centered! It's true that it's orange on both sides and only the pattern changes, and it was dirty...whew... I see Richard Goldstone doing a fund raiser now for one for the more experienced folks he knows who got dropped and hospitalized due to the rope being too short and no one noticing or tying a knot in the end. They weren't noobs. Don't be so complacent is the message. The dirt is actually harder to eat as you get older. [/end rant which is really reaffirming some noise to myself and not directed any one person] ps, I got your stock of Potasium Iodine right here, but I'm holding off for a dirty bomb with possibly heavy cesium and plutonium coming off the docks mere miles away, not some imaginary light radiation drifting over that might or might not arrive from half a world away. You got a hold of Josephs nutz Steve? Good for you! LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Haven't climbed since I lost them... Glad someone still has the nuts to climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevetimetravlr Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 How would you like me to get your nuts back to you Joseph? Or will your wife not let you have them and keeps them on a shelf? Lets don't all forget about the guy at Beacon Rock this summer that I watched rapping down the 2nd pitch of Jills Thrill who must not have had a middle marker at all on his rope. He rapped off the end of his rope as didn't have the rope ends equalized and then free fell down Jills, across Snag Ledge, and then down out of sight to his death. Except he didnt die, but instead got wedged at the very top of the 1st pitch of the SE corner and came crawling back into view a minute later. I still cannot imagine how he managed to stop himself, and he admitted he didn't know but somehow got wedged there before going for the long drop. A angel was watching over him for sure. Just a little bruised and bloody but the guy was still walking. Whoa. Imaginary radiation plume Bill? Actually pretty tangible. Checkout this website and click on the map links to check out the plume integrated into the weather maps. Guaranteed we are getting showered with shitloads of radioactive particles as we speak from this Japan event. The plume shown is based on projections only, but you get the idea. More then a little scary when you have kids. http://transport.nilu.no/products/fukushima Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 How would you like me to get your nuts back to you Joseph? Or will your wife not let you have them and keeps them on a shelf? Lets don't all forget about the guy at Beacon Rock this summer that I watched rapping down the 2nd pitch of Jills Thrill who must not have had a middle marker at all on his rope. He rapped off the end of his rope as didn't have the rope ends equalized and then free fell down Jills, across Snag Ledge, and then down out of sight to his death. Except he didn't die, but instead got wedged at the very top of the 1st pitch of the SE corner and came crawling back into view a minute later. I still cannot imagine how he managed to stop himself, and he admitted he didn't know but somehow got wedged there before going for the long drop. A angel was watching over him for sure. Just a little bruised and bloody but the guy was still walking. Whoa. Imaginary radiation plume Bill? Actually pretty tangible. Checkout this website and click on the map links to check out the plume integrated into the weather maps. Guaranteed we are getting showered with shitloads of radioactive particles as we speak from this Japan event. The plume shown is based on projections only, but you get the idea. More then a little scary when you have kids. http://transport.nilu.no/products/fukushima I'd forgot all about that guy. Wow, did anyone ever figure out who that was? That must have been a screwed up thing to be thinking you'd watched a dude pitch to his death.... I wrote that 2nd part poorly and didn't mean to poo-poo what is really a significant screwed-up environmental disaster. My brothers and I are all part of the Hanford study, having been an infant at the wrong time at the wrong place of Washington state. I've gotten enough radiation as a child to cover me for all the years of my life and I don't even need even trace amounts added to the tally. The Japan thing is not anywhere near enough to trigger me eating my PI stash, and I am paying attention to both what the government is saying, and what people who do not trust the government and have established radiation detectors at their personal homes are saying about the levels. My point to OW was it's probably not a good comparison for a couple of reasons. 1st) middle markers can save your life as your story illustrates. 2nd) Well, no reason to repeat myself unless you like to hear old people drone on. ps, for you. Mokies daughter as crag dog. (I took that leash off right after the picture and it stayed off all day) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfinger Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 I always thought of duodess/bi-color as being really great for sport climbing, as one can "rest" an end of the rope and it would be FAR easier to spot the middle when pulling up cord at the anchor for the rap down than when it's coiled or in a pile. Besides those ropes are both cool looking and expensive, which seem to be more important with sport climbing. As for trad, I could probably buy a good pair of lead and tag lines for the price of a duodess, and full length raps are the thing for alpine, so I admit it--I JUST DON'T GET THE BI-COLOR THING! Hmmm, guess it could be all you Seattle metro types like having a "Bi" rope around but what do I know.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 How would you like me to get your nuts back to you Joseph? Or will your wife not let you have them and keeps them on a shelf? No rush, I've had no use for them for months now and always have a spare set for emergencies (which at this point climbing of any kind would be). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_m Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 I always thought of duodess/bi-color as being really great for sport climbing, as one can "rest" an end of the rope and it would be FAR easier to spot the middle when pulling up cord at the anchor for the rap down than when it's coiled or in a pile. Besides those ropes are both cool looking and expensive, which seem to be more important with sport climbing. As for trad, I could probably buy a good pair of lead and tag lines for the price of a duodess, and full length raps are the thing for alpine, so I admit it--I JUST DON'T GET THE BI-COLOR THING! Hmmm, guess it could be all you Seattle metro types like having a "Bi" rope around but what do I know.... I found a 70m BiPattern to be the cats meow for PNW cragging. Index LOVES the 70m Bi. Thin Fingers, P1 JGs, You can rap down the Upper Wall with a 70m on several routes. I also found it to be awesome while at Skaha. Lots of stuff there liked the 70m Bi as well. There's little point in one when your raps will be over 35m though. In those situations (or where you'll be walking off) double ropes or a "regular" rope are fine. I used to color black marks at about the 10m mark on each end as well. That way I could give the leader a heads up that it was about anchor time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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