Julian Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I actually think this plan of Lama's would be getting a lot less criticism if it weren't for what he and his team did last year (adding bolts to the Compressor route, adding rappel stations, leaving tons of fixed ropes on the route, leaving garbage on the mountain, etc.). He's basically lost any benefit of doubt he might have gotten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Well D, he is held to a different standard maybe because history has a way of repeating itself. As you said earlier, it is unlikely that he will be able to pull off the ascent as he described it. (weather windows) Therefore, the assumption is that he will need to resort to the same BS as last year in order to create his route and appease the sponsors. Â My opinion really means nothing and I doubt that I ever had or while have the skill base to climb in patagonia. But I like to think that there are places in the world where real men (and women) can climb a mountain on the mountains terms, without any more man-made aid than what they bring to ascent. Pure man vs mountain. These places can stand as a model of pure adventure that lesser men can strive towards at their own home mountain ranges. When Cerro torre becomes a place where sport climbers go to get their groove on, where else can one look at for that purity? (not that Lama is creating pure sport route, but is pushing it in that direction) there are no pure ranges left in the world. Â It is not about norms and accepted practices of the climbing world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Â But I like to think that there are places in the world where real men (and women) can climb a mountain on the mountains terms, without any more man-made aid than what they bring to ascent. Pure man vs mountain. Â You mean like jackets and hats. Those are aid to stay warm. And were most likely made in China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Without reading this whole thread, I'll chime in and say that there are still plenty of mountains (I'd say all of them) that can be climbed by those hardmen/women without man made aid... NOBODY is forcing anyone to clip a bolt, jug a fixed line, or wear man made clothing. You are always welcome to skip the bolts, leave the rope at home and make your own clothes from hemp, animal hydes (that you of course harvested on your own with, without "man made aid". Sure, you may see the bolts, but you will also see the roads, stores and infrastructures. Just sayin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 "Just don't clip the bolts" is basically the most retarded pro-bolting argument there is. Using that logic, we should just grid-bolt everything. Â There are good arguments for bolting. But that is not one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Not to minimise the actual act, but I wonder how much of this debate and bad feelings is caused by the fact that dude is getting paid to do this thing. It is a commercial enterprise. I use to see Skinner catch a lot of flak partially due to him continually trying to commercialize his product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choada_Boy Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Neil Armstrong left footprints on the moon. Fucking dick... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Neil Armstrong left footprints on the moon. Fucking dick... Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.g Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Neil Armstrong left footprints on the moon. Fucking dick... x2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Not to minimise the actual act, but I wonder how much of this debate and bad feelings is caused by the fact that dude is getting paid to do this thing. It is a commercial enterprise. I use to see Skinner catch a lot of flak partially due to him continually trying to commercialize his product. Â I wonder how much of the "debate" is caused by this being essentially a front-country range well served by an adjacent quaint tourist town with plenty of internet cafes where our urban-alpinist heroes can sip cafe-con-leches while they update their blogs (and make sure to thank their sponsors...) Â "Patagonia" sure has a romantic history ... but it's easy to see why some might question how different it is from Chamonix or Canmore any more ... Â Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Neil Armstrong left footprints on the moon. F*&king d*ck... x2 Â So...I guess that absolves everybody from responsibility for their own personal choices and actions, right here on earth, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Lost in Translation  Let it Burn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.g Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Neil Armstrong left footprints on the moon. F*&king d*ck... x2  So...I guess that absolves everybody from responsibility for their own personal choices and actions, right here on earth, eh?  Dawg - humor is not lost on me regardless of how I feel about this issue. Choada boys comment made me laugh. Thanks Choada. Nowhere did I say or imply that this absolved anyone of anything. Carry on then and I say to you "good day sir". and oh yeah     Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 "Just don't clip the bolts" is basically the most retarded pro-bolting argument there is. Using that logic, we should just grid-bolt everything. Â There are good arguments for bolting. But that is not one of them. No, not a bad argument for what I was pointing out... You CAN still climb without "artificial aid", even if it is available... Whatever. I don't believe bolting is good when other viable options are available. But someone above has a point that any man made stuff used to assist in the mountains is also "man made aid". That is the point I was agreeing with. It boils down to ones own perception of "aid" and/or ones "ethics". These can obviously vary greatly from one person to the other. Why did I even bother getting sucked in here??? I am a dumbass for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordansahls Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 many man made items (such as clothing) don't assure success or safety. When you climb a bolted route, you know all you have to do is make the next bolt, and the next, and so on. There's no, "oh S, will this go?" factor (or its minimal). Or, "I wonder how to pro is?" question. Sure there are route topos and maps and desriptions, but these hardly take the adventure out of climbing (at least in my expiriences). Â I agree that the nature of "aid" is rather subjective. But somehow wearing a new RAB event jacket with arc'teryx pants just isnt the same as rapping down a face, drilling holes, and placing bolts. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Neil Armstrong left footprints on the moon. Fucking dick... Â Are you really comparing this to Armstrong walking on the moon? Wow, rap-bolting has gotten really hardcore! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Neil Armstrong left footprints on the moon. Fucking dick... Â Are you really comparing this to Armstrong walking on the moon? Wow, rap-bolting has gotten really hardcore! Â As usual Robby....you are missing the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Dawg - humor is not lost on me regardless of how I feel about this issue. Choada boys comment made me laugh. Thanks Choada. Nowhere did I say or imply that this absolved anyone of anything. Carry on then and I say to you "good day sir". and oh yeah  Dude...clearly the original moon comment was an attempt at humor...but it brings to mind the old justification used so many times in these kinds of "discussions" in that as long as there is something of greater environmental or ethical questionability, then anything less is excused. For example,there were some heated exchanges on cc.com a few years ago during which the closely-spaced bolts on "Rap Wall" at Snoqualamie Pass (complete with long-term hanging draws), were called out, and some folks tried to make the point that those itty-bitty bolts and those itty-bitty fixed draws were nothing compared to the big ski areas next door. I say nonsense...the ski area might be out of your control, but you do have control over your own actions, small and large, and leaving your garbage on the crags, or creating new permanent trails, is your choice.  By the way, someday I hope we'll clean up the garbage we've left on the moon...and respect the place for the "magnificent desolation" that it is, and not tear it up it like we've done down here.  And good day to you sir! I said...GOOD-DAY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.g Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Dude....thanks, now I get it. Â Since when are "discussions" two camps hollering "yes" and "no" back and forth non stop? Seems more like on online two sided rant to me. Â I have not stated my position on either side of this "discussion" so why do you feel it necessary to preach your gospel to me? Do you feel you need to convert me? If so from what position as I have already said it is unstated. Â "the ski area might be out of your control, but you do have control over your own actions, small and large, and leaving your garbage on the crags, or creating new permanent trails, is your choice." Â So it appears that you are saying it is "my choice". But is that to mean that it is my choice as long as I want to listen to your opinion? Which is it sir, my moral and ethical duty to live by your standard or is it really "my choice"? Â cheers Guv'na! Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdietsch Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Neil Armstrong left footprints on the moon. Fucking dick... Â It was a siege ascent too. First alpine style human powered moon shot byfairmeans ascent is still up for grabs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Neil Armstrong left footprints on the moon. Fucking dick... Â It was a siege ascent too. First alpine style human powered moon shot byfairmeans ascent is still up for grabs. Â Actually, I think it was capsule style! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.g Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Rockets are aid! Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Like Rich Simpson's sport climbing claims, Neil's inability to repeat "Footprints on The Moon" on demand have called the validity of this problem, not to mention its grade, into question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kukuzka1 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Â Â Which is it sir, my moral and ethical duty to live by your standard or is it really "my choice"? Â Its really your choice. weather me, dawg or god himself[or herself] disagrees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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