Raindawg Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 raindawg, your chest thumping "sportclimbing sucks!" banter is . You aren't changing anyones mind. (and I'm sure I'm not changing yours) You don't have to take every opportunity you can to get your already widely known views out there. Sportclimbing is convenient, fun, and here to stay. stop whining. you're acting like a child. No, not everyone is aware of the alternative perspectives and not everyone reads cc.com. Obviously Matt-m wasn't fully aware, so speak for yourself. Got a problem with other viewpoints other than your own and would like to stifle them? Who's the child?? I'd venture to say that most sport-climbers have little clue that there is an opposition until The Man gets tired of their bolts and restricts them or shuts them down which they are increasingly doing. And certainly most folks coming from a gym aren't exposed to much in the way of ethics. So if you find my posts "super f*%king annoying" [really grown-up language, dude ], then scroll on by when you see the name "Raindawg". And by the way, I HAVE changed more than a few people's minds and they usually thank me for it. So enjoy your "convenience" and "fun" while it lasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 cue broken record BOOO BOOO BOOOOO BOOOO Feelin' guilty? BOOO BOOO BOOOOO BOOOO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 raindawg, your chest thumping "sportclimbing sucks!" banter is . You aren't changing anyones mind. (and I'm sure I'm not changing yours) You don't have to take every opportunity you can to get your already widely known views out there. Sportclimbing is convenient, fun, and here to stay. stop whining. you're acting like a child. No, not everyone is aware of the alternative perspectives and not everyone reads cc.com. Obviously Matt-m wasn't fully aware, so speak for yourself. Got a problem with other viewpoints other than your own and would like to stifle them? Who's the child?? I'd venture to say that most sport-climbers have little clue that there is an opposition until The Man gets tired of their bolts and restricts them or shuts them down which they are increasingly doing. And certainly most folks coming from a gym aren't exposed to much in the way of ethics. So if you find my posts "super f*%king annoying" [really grown-up language, dude ], then scroll on by when you see the name "Raindawg". And by the way, I HAVE changed more than a few people's minds and they usually thank me for it. So enjoy your "convenience" and "fun" while it lasts. via ferrata forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 whiny dog, you like chairlifts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boadman Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 b) And if it's crackless or too hard for you, why not top-rope it instead....or just climb in places where you don't have to leave your permanent mess? Do sport-climbs lack adventure? Is it a weak-sauce permutation of climbing? Many believe so, but again, in my opinion, the physical environmental issues are foremost. Bolts on cliffs are actually a stylistic issue also. They have less impact environmentally than approach trails or nests of tat on trees. I've never heard you explain how people are supposed to TR wildly over-hanging routes without decking or breaking their backs on trees. On-sight climbing is obviously the gold standard and what the majority of climbers enjoy most. However, it is very difficult to push your on-sight level without pushing yourself on routes that require rehearsal. This tactic is also used extensively on naturally protected routes and has been since before the advent of sport climbing (gritstone, dresden, etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I've never heard you explain how people are supposed to TR wildly over-hanging routes without decking or breaking their backs on trees. From my perspective you'd be better off just leaving the rock in question alone if you're not willing to accept the consequences of a top-rope. Better to do so then leaving your permanent metallic trail (or endorsing someone else's) on public land. On-sight climbing is obviously the gold standard and what the majority of climbers enjoy most. However, it is very difficult to push your on-sight level without pushing yourself on routes that require rehearsal. This tactic is also used extensively on naturally protected routes and has been since before the advent of sport climbing (gritstone, dresden, etc.). Get super-strong in a gym...they're everywhere now! As I originally stated, although siege-climbing a route to "achieve" a big number might be considered stylistically questionable by some, it is relatively harmless compared to the environmental concerns already noted. Have a nice day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnkelley Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 In the end fixed draws, grid bolted crags, and sport tatics in general will only reduce access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky_joe Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 (edited) I really think that is a harsh thing to say. And there are more than a few cases in which it is demonstrably incorrect. Smith Rock is probably the shining example of this, bolts, fixed draws and "sport tactics" abound, yet because the ethical battle that some climbers get off on (looking at you Raindawg)has been kept as a disagreement among climbers and not affected the general public access is not questioned by the park or forest service. In fact, sport tactics and the sport community can greatly effect increases in access. Several Oregon crags come to mind, Smith, Flagstone, Callahans, The Garden, Carver Cliffs to name a few, have worked with private and public landowners and managers to ensure that the community will have access to use the area, often te local sport community at these crags takes days to perform trail maintenance, trash pick-up etc. It is overly general to say that sport tactics have any effect on climbers ability to access rock. As long as the sport climbing community adheres to general LNT principles and respects their co-users, there isn't any problem. I think it's also unfair to say that fixed draws negatively affect another type of user's enjoyment of the area. I know in many cases that (non-climber) hikers enjoy watching people climb or even just seeing that there is a route to be climbed. I would guess that the mean hiker is indifferent between fixed draws or not. The conversation we are having should be viewed in the correct scope. Ethics are a local thing, both geographically and socially. A crag and the climbers who use that crag develop the ethical code for proper use of the rock. There is not one set of ethics that can be applied to all crags and to argue as such is to be misguided in your approach. Edited March 5, 2011 by rocky_joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el jefe Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 In the end fixed draws, grid bolted crags, and sport tatics in general will only reduce access. this assertion is not borne out by the facts: according to JosephH, roughly one million bolts per year are being placed in the US, so if we assume 10 bolts per route, then that means there are 100,000 new climbs every year as a result of the adoption of "sport tactics" -- and 100,000 new routes per year hardly amounts to a reduction in climbing access, but rather a considerable increase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnkelley Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Bolting something does not increase access. It just means that rock that was already accessable now has bolts. Not all stone needs to be ADA compliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_m Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 (edited) raindawg, your chest thumping "sportclimbing sucks!" banter is . You aren't changing anyones mind. (and I'm sure I'm not changing yours) You don't have to take every opportunity you can to get your already widely known views out there. Sportclimbing is convenient, fun, and here to stay. stop whining. you're acting like a child. No, not everyone is aware of the alternative perspectives and not everyone reads cc.com. Obviously Matt-m wasn't fully aware, so speak for yourself. Got a problem with other viewpoints other than your own and would like to stifle them? Who's the child?? I'd venture to say that most sport-climbers have little clue that there is an opposition until The Man gets tired of their bolts and restricts them or shuts them down which they are increasingly doing. And certainly most folks coming from a gym aren't exposed to much in the way of ethics. So if you find my posts "super f*%king annoying" [really grown-up language, dude ], then scroll on by when you see the name "Raindawg". And by the way, I HAVE changed more than a few people's minds and they usually thank me for it. So enjoy your "convenience" and "fun" while it lasts. Well aware of the environmental issues. Been doing this a long time. Also been on here a long time reading you say the same thing again and again. While environmental impact may be one of your issues, history on here shows that you take STRONG issue with bolts and sport climbing for it's stylistic differences from "trad"- Which is what I was referring too in my post. Things like fixed draws are best addressed in a case by case basis. Again, Little Si is not pristine wilderness where leave no trace is foremost. It's got a WELL WORN trail to it's top with BENCHES along the way. That sure as hell is fixed gear that's more visible than some hangers and draws. There are certainly places in the US (MANY, MANY PLACES) where preserving a "pristine" wilderness should be top priority. However, there are also many outdoor areas that would VASTLY benefit from a more European Style of Mtn Adventure. Added "connivence" in it's many forms will help to direct human traffic into specific zones where it can best be managed. Edited March 7, 2011 by matt_m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 (edited) repeating your point of view one million times eventually wins over the crowd. It worked for G W Bush. Raindwag only has another 500,000 more voicing of his opinion in order to win the popular opinion. Edited March 7, 2011 by genepires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 It would be great to see the stone throwers show us they are putting their time and energy and money into conservation efforts OF ANY KIND. If you do that you may find that people will listen more carefully to what you have to say. There are a lot of people here who put in hard work on crags and other places who are probably willing to have a rational conversation if you are out at the crag helping do something tangible that preserves the resource. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CascadeClimber Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 It would be great to see the stone throwers show us they are putting their time and energy and money into conservation efforts OF ANY KIND. I'll chime back in here and point out that doing nothing to any natural setting is the epitome of conservation. Replacing old/worn out fixed gear and bolts is about maintenance, not conservation. I agree with those that said this is an important conversation, and I'll also point out that absolutism and name-calling are usually tactics employed by those who don't believe in the objective merits of their position. That said, to bring some levity back to this conversation, I "conserved" this rap station I found on the Haystack last weekend: Clothesline, a utility biner, and a knot that looked like something my kids made when they were learning to tie their shoes. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 CC: I believe that is a rap station that SummitChaserBJ left after he soloed that new mixed route on the Haystack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion_sonya Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 That is a nice find CC . What was it on top of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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