cynicalwoodsman Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 2 years ago I moved to Ohio and there's no rock to climb here. I hate pulling plastic, but every once in a while even I get the urge to do some pull-down and maybe clip some bolts. There are 2 rock gyms nearby and they both require a climber to show proficiency at whatever they call a 5.10 on TR before they'll allow said climber to lead. For some reason, they only offer leadable climbs in the 5.10-5.12 range. Can someone explain this to me? What does climbing hard have to do with leading? There's plenty of bolted moderate routes all over the country. Who benefits from this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I bet the lead routes are on overhanging walls so that the falls are clean. Overhanging ground is usually harder. Ask them to put jugs on the steep lines and you got your moderate lead line. Ask and ye shall receive. If you fall on a natural line and break an ankle, you gonna sue the granite? The gym doesn't have that liability immunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markwebster Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I live in Tacoma where it rains...probably all over the state today. In the rainy winter, climbing at the gym is all there is, not counting ice climbing. All the gyms around here have some sort of lead test. At stonegardens, they make you lead a 5.7, while being toproped by another belayer. But all the lead routes are overhanging for reasons mentioned by Gene. There are however routes as easy as 5.8 that can be led. Lots of big jugs, and vertical, if not overhanging. Making you TR a 5.10 means you must have done at least some climbing, which would assure the staff you are more likely to know how to lead clip. At our local gym, you have to first do a short mock lead where you intentionally back clip, and z-clip, then fix it. Then you do a real lead up a 5.8, and take a lead fall at the top, usually about 10 feet of air time. Then you switch and catch one. It's lots of fun getting air time at the gym. I've taken intentional whippers just for the ride. I like to bring my own rope though, the gym ropes get a lot of abuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky_joe Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Gyms often require that climbers onsight 9/10- before leading for several reasons; most of which can be attributed to having overhung lead walls. Very few gyms offer slab or vertical lead climbs, because the chance of an inverted fall is much greater. Overhung walls are safer (cheaper insurance), however they require more from setters and climbers. Without wasting an entire hold collection, it is difficult to set anything easier than 5.9 on a ~50' wall that is overhung. From climbers, leading indoor requires both good technique (if you climb 5.7 it's not likely you've developed this, esp for horizontal terrain) and efficient clipping (another thing not requisite of 5.7). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 The gym is a good place to get strong, so have fun. If a particular 5.10 is their test, then you have a goal. Go get it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynicalwoodsman Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Thanks folks! I posed the same question to the gym. They gave me the same answer: cleaner falls; safer whips. I was concerned this policy was egocentric and contrived like in the more local-to-me gym. That place doesn't make me wanna climb at all. I started in the gym, have worked in a few gyms, and also spent several years installing and helping in the production of climbing walls and structures for a major US climbing wall company. I never noticed this practice to be any kind of norm. It makes sense though. And I know liability is a much bigger concern than ever with the climbing walls as well as with everyone else. Dude was cool. I'm hyper sensative to climber attitude and elitists in general, and I've found a lot of that sorta stuff in gyms; especially, for some reason, in the gyms that are farthest from the crags. But this one seems worth the trip. I don't enjoy pumping out on plastic, and I'm not currently able to afford a membership, but it's nice to at least have a place to do a little climbing. I really just wanna clip some easy bolts 'n get loose for the few ice leads I still get each season. There was a time I could onsight 10c sport & 5.9 gear, but since moving here I don't climb. Leading 5.10 would surely whoop my ass, but hey man... I can still climb something! That's pretty cool. Keep up the stoke, people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kukuzka1 Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Most climbing gym workers are arrogant s.o.bs. in my experience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketparrotlet Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Vertical World in Everett makes you lead a 5.9 to be certified. You don't have to do any kind of check before it. There are overhanging as well as vertical routes to lead there, actually. It's a pretty relaxed environment as far as climbing gyms go. I went in to get the lead check a couple weeks ago, and they told me I had to lead a 5.9, and I freaked...I hadn't been rock climbing since September, so I had the guy take me around the gym and show me all the 5.9 routes...I settled on the roof route because it had the biggest jugs. My forearms felt like they got shot when I was done, but it was great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llarian Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Vertical World (all of them) doesn't make you lead it clean however. You can hangdog, fall, whatever. They just wanna make sure you have the technique. They do tend to have a few 5.7/5.8 leads set at all times though, mostly the jug ladders like mentioned above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynicalwoodsman Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Most climbing gym workers are arrogant s.o.bs. in my experience I agree. Gyms far from the actual rock seem to be the worst. Their employees seem to eat up the attention they get from newbies who, for whatever reason, have the impression the gym climber is actually a rock climber, or that being a rock climber is deserving of reverance. These climbers seem to give the impression they are entitled to admiration because they are a rock climber. Or that gym climbing is rock climbing, or that any of it means anything. Thank the x-games, NOLS, and gear ads for this. Little does the newbie know that, in many cases, the strong gym climber pullin sick hard moves on a 25' indoor plywood wall would likely whine like a baby if he was runout from a J-tree bolt or fumbling with gear on any of many classic 'gunks "moderates"; let alone put up some VI 5.15B C4 A3 AI5 WI7 FA on some obscure unclimbed peak on mars (and that he hiked there on his naked knees and elbows in full conditions) which is how it ends up sounding to the newbie. In many cases, dude's never even climbed rock. I don't think the attitude and arrogance is as bad in a gym, close to actual rock, and full of strong rock climbers who actually climb rock and only view the gym as training or bad weather ground. A gym full of hard rock cimbers usually goes a long way toward tempering the potential attitude of those, if any, who only climb in the gym... not that there's anything wrong with that, depending on individual goals. It's a great place to just stay fit. One isn't required to ever climb real rock. Conversely, one isn't required to pose in order to gain respect. It's ironic that the best way for the teacher to earn the admiration of his students is to show humility, check his ego, and focus on the stuents' goals; not his own. In too many cases, the hard gym climber never intended on climbin' outside of the gym. They're quite satisfied merely being perceived as a rock climber, and they can talk all the shit they want to the newbies cuz the newbies there will most likely never regularly climb rock or ever meet any climbers that do. To each his own I suppose, but there's a lot of responsibility ANY teacher takes on by being a teacher; especially if they're teaching something as potentially dangerous as climbing. And it's common for most anyone in a teaching or leaderhsip position to abuse it as a means to meet their own self-serving egocentric goals. Climbing is awesome because it can be serve many goals, but I don't believe being perceived as a badass should be one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drederek Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Most climbing gym workers are arrogant s.o.bs. in my experience Not my experience at all. I have run into a few over the years but lately not so much. I got the feeling the few bad ones were not very experienced and just focused on making sure people did stuff the way they had been told to do it. But I've never been to a climbing gym in a flat state or jail so your results may differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Most climbing gym workers are arrogant s.o.bs. in my experience Not what I've seen in Seattle, at least in setters. The ones I've met climb hard and work hard and go out of their way to help climbers of all abilities. If you get poor customer service somewhere let the management know about it. Flaming on the internet doesn't solve anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynicalwoodsman Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 Most climbing gym workers are arrogant s.o.bs. in my experience Not my experience at all. I have run into a few over the years but lately not so much. I got the feeling the few bad ones were not very experienced and just focused on making sure people did stuff the way they had been told to do it. But I've never been to a climbing gym in a flat state or jail so your results may differ. jail? Can someone translate this for me? There's climbing gyms in jail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kukuzka1 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I think he is refering to my local[jail] and yours[flat state]. True, I havent been to a climbing gym in awhile and it may be better.[and I probibly will join the new stone gardens at crossroads in bellevue. its gonna be mental] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynicalwoodsman Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 There's a climbing wall in your local jail? That's nutty. Damn, dude. Three squares, a rack, AND a climbing wall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kukuzka1 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Ya its called the outer fence, plus you can pretend the bullets are rockfall! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynicalwoodsman Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 I don't get it. If there's a climbing wall there, who'd wanna leave? Free rent's a good deal too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky_joe Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Wow dude. You're really bitter about this climbing gym topic. Pretty insane generalizations you've made by saying that all gym climbers and workers are arrogant, egomaniacal douchebags who never touch real rock without their girlfriend holding their hand (ass) and a bolt every 3 feet. Sure, some of that exists, but it's far from the norm. Really, watch generalizing every gym to that extreme; it makes you sound like a trolling son of a bitch as well as a tired old man just jealous that kids at his local gym are climbing harder than he could ever dream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kukuzka1 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 There's a climbing wall in your local jail? That's nutty. Damn, dude. Three squares, a rack, AND a climbing wall? Dont forget ya get a girlfriend in their also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynicalwoodsman Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Wow dude. You're really bitter about this climbing gym topic. Pretty insane generalizations you've made by saying that all gym climbers and workers are arrogant, egomaniacal douchebags who never touch real rock without their girlfriend holding their hand (ass) and a bolt every 3 feet. Sure, some of that exists, but it's far from the norm. Really, watch generalizing every gym to that extreme; it makes you sound like a trolling son of a bitch as well as a tired old man just jealous that kids at his local gym are climbing harder than he could ever dream. I don't even know how to spell egomaniacal, or douchebag. Nor have I even ever met your girlfriend, but I paid a dollar to see her panties last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I don't even know how to spell egomaniacal, or douchebag. Nor have I even ever met your girlfriend, but I paid a dollar to see her panties last night. Just because you can't spell a word doesn't mean you are not that. Besides you spelled egomaniacal and douchebag in your posting. A real douchebag pays money to look at used panties without a girl attached it them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafe1234 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 A real douchebag pays money to look at used panties without a girl attached it them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynicalwoodsman Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Ok ok I guess I deserve all this angst. Besides... my shrink told me to apologize. I'm quite capable of humility. And I have a lot of respect for all you guys. You've ALL done way more climbing than I have. I don't have the balls. I don't know from glaciers, volcanos, or avy danger where I'm from. I'd still like to, but it all scares the ever-livin' crap out'a me. I did a season of forest circus wilderness patrols out'a l'worth. I can only imagine how harsh that backcountry is by the time they close that last gate toward trinity. Crazy. So Joe, forgive me. I didn't mean to offend anyone in present company. I guess I just didn't realize I was directing any of my angst to anyone in here... 'cept the panty comment. And I didn't know they were dirty. That's gross. But really though... I read how harsh the spray is on this site. I was just tryin' to fit in. You guys are raw! I gotta ask, because I wasn't directing any of my bitter angst to anyone in here. Why did I piss everyone off so bad? I don't believe ANYone in here would ever fall into the category of climber I'm (very unsucessfully) trying to describe. And I guess that was sorta my whole point. Not to mention almost all of you acknowlege they've witnessed the attitude... even amidst a solid climbing community. Imagine what it gets like in the midwest. I don't think many of you have climbed in any of the gyms I've had troubles with. That's why I tried really hard to put into context the type of venue I'm talking about. If you've never climbed in a gym in a flat state, or at a small obscure university climbing wall far from the crags (and far from most climbers) I guess it's impossible for you to understand how bad the attitude can get. And I hate to see what it does to people's views of climbing. The one bad egg thing I think. I've seen a lotta bad eggs. Who knows. Maybe I've been the bad egg before, like in here. But it was never my intention. I doubt my experiences would ever be repeated, cuz they never were for me, at climbing gyms in the PNW. Maybe it's an east coast thing. I am from Philly. And this isn't the first time I burn bridges as soon as I start talkin' (or typin'). I've never really fit in with you guys. I don't look, climb, live, or view climbing quite the same way a lotta you folks do. And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't ever seeking inclusion into climbing. I'm also really sensative to the attitude; whether it be climbers, or guitar players. I play guitar way better than most of you climb, and it's the only thing I really have any ego about. Well... I'm a pretty good mtn biker too, but anyway... I don't really think I deserved the hammering that Joe gave me, as, like I said, I was never directing my angst to anyone in here, so I don't really get why some folks got so upset. Maybe I am bitter. Maybe I am, sorta (not really but I'm tryin' to be objective here) jealous of those who climb harder than I do. Hard to say. Personally, as soon as I'm climbing 10's and several days a week my fingers start hurtin' really bad, and when I come home and can't play 'mood for a day' or 'broones bane' on my classical guitar, or 'for the love of god' on my electric, it's time to stop climbing. It's not worth it. I'm rambling. But I just wanted to say I never meant to piss anyone off. I'd like to keep posting in here and gaining knowlege and hearing perspectives from those better and stronger and more experienced than me at this whole crazy climbing thing. It's not a way of life for me, but I plan on spending my life doing it at one capacity or another. So I'm sorry. I'd be happy to meet some of you, maybe climb together (moderates moderates moderates!!!), and share a smoothie and some granola with the cool kids from Eugene. As long as you're willing to look me up 'n swill some wild turkey, ipa's, and marlboros when you come to cleveland. There just isn't anything to climb here... unless ya wanna go to the gym. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky_joe Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 You paid a dollar to see her panties? Shit, you should have gone through me, I'd have got you a view of the panties and bra for 75 cents. Anyways, you didn't piss me off. You just made some pretty bold claims. I work at a gym and have climbed at several in the PNW; while I've seen some of what you're trying to describe, the majority of gym workers are themselves strong, competent climbers (esp amongst setting crews). Sure, there is some elitism in the gym scene, but I'd be hard pressed to find any other group of people in which there is none. Assholes (elitists) are going to be assholes whether they climb, cycle, lift weights or play guitar. It's the way people work that you have a problem with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cynicalwoodsman Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 I guess I was talkin' more about some of the gym members as opposed to the staffers. My bad. I lost my way a tad in the middle of holding up my shield and burying my head in the snow. And I think (can't remember who it was), after some thought, I agree with something posted in this thread about new and less-experienced gym staffers just tryin' to do their job the way they were taught when dealing with climbers who just wanna show up 'n do what they wanna so and kinda disregard the rules at the gym. I did make bold statments. Check the handle dude. But I do try to make ammends. Its hard for me sometimes to not forget that most folks haven't necessarily had the same experiences I've had in life (not climbing) which have led me to being such a cynical prick. I've never had a problem accepting and taking with a grain of salt the few as part of the whole. But I'm tellin ya dude... I've seen some (not many... but some) gyms that do everything wrong... from attitudes, to rubbin' MOST folks the wrong way, to teaching bad habits, to being rude to everyone who walks in the door, to ignoring clientele to pose, to downright blatantly telling newbies that they don't deserve to be there. It's bazarre. I was hoping to find some affirmation in here. Didn't work. About that offer... got change for a buck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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