billcoe Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Too bad Rob, because of the time restrictions here, you can't name the murder of JFK by Lyndon Johnson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Is the thinking here that if we condemn extremism of all political stripes in theory or if we call attention to the relative handful of incidents from the left of the spectrum, then the real, quantifiable surge in the acts of political violence perpetrated by a growing American Right will cease to exist? Edited January 10, 2011 by prole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 The thought is that if we shun the kind of violent rhetoric we've seen the Right adopt in the past few years, we'll be able to conduct our affairs with fewer people getting shot. Â The problem with the tea bagger movement is that it is, at its core, a sociopathic one that seeks to circle the wagons in an effort to further concentrate dwindling wealth at the expense of the country as a whole. Rather than band together during a difficult time, they've chosen to jump in the lifeboats first. The logical strategy would be to disenfranchise everyone else, which, of course, they are actively seeking to do. Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosterson Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Everyone has "condemned" this attack, though do note that most politicians have lead their statements with the words "I am horrified" (note the prominence of the first person singular), and then continue with what could be summarized as: Â Many people will use this terrible tragedy as an excuse to put through a political agenda other than my own. This tawdry abuse of human suffering for political gain sickens me to the core of my being. Those people who have different political views from me ought to be ashamed of themselves for thinking of cheap partisan point-scoring at a time like this. In any case, what this tragedy really shows us is that, so far from putting into practice political views other than my own, it is precisely my political agenda which ought to be advanced. (link) Â Â Tree spiking...come fucking on. Â Eric McDavid??? Rob, are you really trying to convince us that damage to property (industrial/environmental sabotage) is the equivalent of murder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimmo Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 he understands better if you speak like a cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 i'm not excusing the right for damn sure, nor saying the left has for decades, or ultimately in the final balance, been equally to blame  i'm just asking where it leaves you in terms of action to take?  tvash saying a renewed dedication to prosecute those who incite violence is good - but, ardent supporter of free-speech that you are, pat, you know its not going to be easy to press that attack home - i wish it the best though, as it is realistically the best "win" to be had from the whole sad story.  public awareness and condemnation? sure. fuck yeah. and i think it is happening.  enhanced gun control? whatever. set the arguments pro and con aside a moment, b/c they don't matter. what's the reality? there's no way - it just can't happen - its a right cherished as much as southerners cherished slavery, and it couldn't be rolled back w/o the same kind of civil-war effort - i've made my reverting to the 18th century-version of the 2nd amendment argument, which i think's a damned good one, but i don't seriously see it having the least chance. seriously, how many fuckign horrible thigns have happened b/c of our devotion to the 2nd amendment? enough so that, if we EVER were going to change our thoughts as a nation, we would have done it a long, long time ago. as a nation, we just don't care that much, or at least we're willing to accept tragedies like these on a pretty regular basis as a price of that feedom. that said, i'm willign to pester 2/3 of the congress to pass my plan into reality, and 3/4 of the states to accept it...i just wouldn't bet a damn cent it'd ever actually happen. and even if it did happen, i'm far from convinced it would work. at any rate, who's the john brown on this issue going to be, and what could he/she conceivably even do to make it happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 tree spiking is actually quite dangerous to loggers' life-and-limb, which is why it has become quite unpopular among "Eco-terrorists." Â But it's a moot point, since people on the left are Just Better People. If anybody on the left hurts someone, of course the example is somehow not relevant. Â Everybody knows that convservatives across the country are secretely hailing this attempted assasination attempt. Duh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) You'd think public outcry would be enough, but so far, most Darlings of the Right remain completely unapologetic and in denial of their role in creating and disseminating the kind of gun focused, violent memes that are now so pervasive. Â This leads me to support increased government scrutiny of talk shows etc for criminal speech. Just the threat of a investigation is often enough to tone things down a bit, even as the talk show host continues to rail against the intrusions of 'Big Gubbamint', the prospect of going up against the DOJ would probably result in a quite omission of formerly incendiary rhetoric involving 2nd Amendment Solutions. Talk show callers should be prosecuted as well as their hosts for any criminal speech. Â I'm a free speech advocate - as one essential pillar of a free society. Violent intimidation has no place in a free society. It's not protected speech, nor should it be. Â Comprehensive gun bans DO work, as expected, to reduce gun crime, which reduces the lethality of crime in general. Mostly domestic violence; the majority of gun deaths (and suicide). They absolutely keep guns out of the hands of the criminally psychotic. Not in America, though, thanks to a particularly paranoid, xenophobic culture, ignorance, cherished myths, and convenient 'updating' of our founding history. Â Politically feasible? Probably not. Perhaps the debate, which has largely died, might start once again, however. Edited January 10, 2011 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 tree spiking is actually quite dangerous to loggers' life-and-limb, which is why it has become quite unpopular among "Eco-terrorists." Â But it's a moot point, since people on the left are Just Better People. If anybody on the left hurts someone, of course the example is somehow not relevant. Â Everybody knows that convservatives across the country are secretely hailing this attempted assasination attempt. Duh. Â Yeah, a bucking chain saw is pretty much the same as shooting somebody point blank in the head for their political representation. Great argument, buddy...followed by a very logical conclusion. Good job. Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Actually, a lot of logging operations don't even use chain saws anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimmo Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 tree spiking is actually quite dangerous to loggers' life-and-limb, which is why it has become quite unpopular among "Eco-terrorists." Â But it's a moot point, since people on the left are Just Better People. If anybody on the left hurts someone, of course the example is somehow not relevant. Â Everybody knows that convservatives across the country are secretely hailing this attempted assasination attempt. Duh. Â would you really argue that "the right" has equally non-violent tendencies as "the left"? you know, in general , from foreign policy, to capital punishment, to corporal punishment for children. please reconsider your apologetics for "the right". Â although give us more humorous anecdotes about the dangers of tree-spiking being equal to shots from a gun, and how many lives have been lost. Â Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Â Â Poor loggers! Â Watch out for them spikes, man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) I've never said they were "equal." Clearly a tree-spike in not the same as shooting 20 people. YOU guys keep putting those words in my mouth. I'm just responding to rediculous claims of "Show me just ONE example of left-wing violence." ANd when I show you the example, you say it doesn't count. Those are republican tactics. Â I'm just saying that the republicans don't have a monopoly on polarizing and violently extremist political discourse. Is the tea-party worse? Maybe. Probably. That's not my point. Â The fact taht so many liberals in this thread are ferociously adamant about absolutely refusing to acknowledge this, just proves my point. Edited January 10, 2011 by rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Oops.... Â "One possible injury from tree spiking occurred in the United States in 1987. California mill worker George Alexander was seriously injured when the bandsaw he was operating was shattered by either an old nail or a tree spike. This led many many progressive Earth First! groups to denounce tree spiking.[1] Other activists[citation needed] were led to either reject this form of sabotage entirely, or take some precautions, such as putting warning signs in the area where the trees are being spiked. Tree spiking is condemned by opponents as eco-terrorism as they claim it is potentially dangerous to loggers or mill-workers,[2] although only this one injury possibly resulting from tree spiking has been widely reported.[1]" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Â Poor loggers! Â Watch out for them spikes, man! Â I stand corrected, tree-spikes are not a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 You're debating ME, man, not Billcoe or some other dumbshit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Anyway, he was probably a republican, so who cares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 1944? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 A 12-foot section of the huge sawblade had broken off and hit George in the throat and face, ripping through his face mask and cutting into his jugular vein. His jaw was broken in five places and a dozen teeth were knocked out. The blade was wrapped around him, and his co-workers had to blowtorch it off while they tried to keep him from bleeding to death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) liburuls are purfect! I promise I won't stray from the party line any longer. Â Our shit doesn't stink, either. Edited January 10, 2011 by rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) 1987. Spiking denounced afterward by Earth First. No one confirmed it was a tree spike to begin with. One incident. Non fatal. Â Not to mention that Earth First, unlike the tea baggers, were never a very popular movement among the Left or anyone else. Â NEXT STREEEEEEETTTTTTCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDD analogy? Edited January 10, 2011 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Ann_Duke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) I could be wrong, but I believe the practice of shooting congresswomen in the head at grocery stores is also denounced, Pat. Edited January 10, 2011 by rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Congresswomen. Point blank, in the head. 9 year old. Judge. Retiree.... Â You're done here, Rob. Edited January 10, 2011 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimmo Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I'm just responding to rediculous claims of "Show me just ONE example of left-wing violence." Â ummmm i don't recall anyone asking that.... Â and if they did, perhaps examples other than tree spiking might better bolster your position? Â perhaps the tone of the responses to your equivocation and conflation seemed to you to be "left-wing" violence apologetics or dismissal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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