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Craig Pope

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what about the ethics of violence? i hardly equate the taking of gear left on public property with causing bodily injury to someone. the notion of "property" is a bit abstract to begin with, whereas violence is very concrete.

 

How is the notion of property abstract? I'd say the notion of property is regarded as a pretty concrete reality, certainly in America. I doubt the theif was pondering the theoretical principles involved in property ownership when he was stripping draws off the wall.

 

Punching the guy when he came down would have been a terrible response to the situation. The filmers handled the moment quite well.

 

If you really were just clueless of the local ethics, why wouldn't you immediately offer to give all of the gear back? Seems property isn't too abstract of a notion to him.

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Here's another scenario:

 

Indignant Smith dudes:

"What are you doing up there?"

"Why are you cleaning the draws?"

 

Raindawg:

"I'm cleaning up the selfish, route-blocking mess some siege-climbers seemed to have abandoned."

 

Indignant Smith dudes:

"Do you know who draws those are? Are they yours?"

 

Raindawg:

"No I don't nor do I care. They are being taken down and the owners can claim them near the the base or with the park officials."

 

Indignant Smith dudes:

"Those are our draws and we climb 5.14a."

 

Raindawg:

"If you can prove that they are really yours, you can have them now in hopes that in the future you'll be more thoughtful about gratuitously leaving your crap suspended from the rock until you feel like you're through with it. If you can't prove they're yours, you can try to convince the park officials and while you're at it, explain why you think it's appropriate to do what you did."

 

Indignant Smith dudes: "Yah, but you don't understand! Me and my friends are working on a 5.14a! You know how hard that is? We can do whatever we want! It's Smith Rocks!"

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Here's another scenario:

 

Indignant Smith dudes:

"What are you doing up there?"

"Why are you cleaning the draws?"

 

Raindawg:

"I'm cleaning up the selfish, route-blocking mess some siege-climbers seemed to have abandoned."

 

Indignant Smith dudes:

"Do you know who draws those are? Are they yours?"

 

Raindawg:

"No I don't nor do I care. They are being taken down and the owners can claim them near the the base or with the park officials."

 

Indignant Smith dudes:

"Those are our draws and we climb 5.14a."

 

Raindawg:

"If you can prove that they are really yours, you can have them now in hopes that in the future you'll be more thoughtful about gratuitously leaving your crap suspended from the rock until you feel like you're through with it. If you can't prove they're yours, you can try to convince the park officials and while you're at it, explain why you think it's appropriate to do what you did."

 

Indignant Smith dudes: "Yah, but you don't understand! Me and my friends are working on a 5.14a! You know how hard that is? We can do whatever we want! It's Smith Rocks!"

 

 

Damn dude.

 

I can beat a dead horse better than most but you're something else!

 

Before you get all preachy with me I'll say I can see your point and I tend to agree with your theory on this but I find your approach to winning converts a bit lacking in, what you might call, "the social skills" department.

 

Are bolts really that big of a deal to you? If they are, then I might suggest you step away from the keyboard and pick up your righteous crow bar and get busy. This never ending drooling and foaming at the mouth about bolts just makes you look like an ass (hole).

 

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Here's another scenario:

 

Indignant Smith dudes:

"What are you doing up there?"

"Why are you cleaning the draws?"

 

Raindawg:

"I'm cleaning up the selfish, route-blocking mess some siege-climbers seemed to have abandoned."

 

Indignant Smith dudes:

"Do you know who draws those are? Are they yours?"

 

Raindawg:

"No I don't nor do I care. They are being taken down and the owners can claim them near the the base or with the park officials."

 

Indignant Smith dudes:

"Those are our draws and we climb 5.14a."

 

Raindawg:

"If you can prove that they are really yours, you can have them now in hopes that in the future you'll be more thoughtful about gratuitously leaving your crap suspended from the rock until you feel like you're through with it. If you can't prove they're yours, you can try to convince the park officials and while you're at it, explain why you think it's appropriate to do what you did."

 

Indignant Smith dudes: "Yah, but you don't understand! Me and my friends are working on a 5.14a! You know how hard that is? We can do whatever we want! It's Smith Rocks!"

 

really, raindawg, this is pretty pathetic. seriously. you really need to find something in life that makes you happy. perhaps then you'll get past spending your time concocting these weird revenge fantasies and posting them on the internet.

 

truly, dude, this stuff makes me sad.

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Damn dude.

 

I can beat a dead horse better than most but you're something else!

 

You know who's beating the dead horse? All them folks praising the condescending dudes with the camera. Including lots of "I would have given that hippy a beat-down" talk. I'm just providing an alternative perspective which I feel is worth repeating amongst the pages of mostly one-sided congratulations permeating two threads now.

 

Before you get all preachy with me I'll say I can see your point and I tend to agree with your theory on this but I find your approach to winning converts a bit lacking in, what you might call, "the social skills" department.

 

Damn-dude. Who say's I'm actively trying to "win converts" and why are you so concerned about my social skills?. Read the last sentence of your post and tell me who lacks social skills.

 

Are bolts really that big of a deal to you? If they are, then I might suggest you step away from the keyboard and pick up your righteous crow bar and get busy. This never ending drooling and foaming at the mouth about bolts just makes you look like an ass (hole).

 

Ya...they are a big deal...and the reasons why have been spelled out on here on cc.com many, many times. Suggest what you like, but I have neither the time to actively chop, nor am I willing to put up with some of the violence-spewing cavemen on this web-site or in the climbing "community" at-large, but I'm not opposed to it. Ultimately, if climbers refuse to clean up their act, The Man will step in (as they have at Joshua Tree and many other areas) and will regulate or eliminate bolting-at-will on public land or will fine folks for leaving their crap hanging off the rock for days.

 

One last thing...if you're sick of the "horse-beating", you are always free to skip any and all posts authored by "Raindawg". Have a nice day.

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You totally missed the tone of those Smith climbers Don. They are kind, generous, gentle and giving folks. You've debated this forever. The hundreds of pages of spray on this topic wasn't enough? http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/898682/1 You have never broached this, where permanent ladders are installed and left to make clients access easier on Rainer. After RMI pulls it in October, one cannot take that ladder and use it to cross the crevasse without breaking the law, even if you put it back later.

- did not contrast what it was like to cross the wood-covered ladders on his earlier October one-way record ascent-with his later ascent, when the ladders were only exposed aluminum rungs (with no wood). It seems this would be an interesting if not significant point, since the ladders had been pulled down after RMI's last climb on October 10, 2002.

 

This description of crossing the ladder is mysteriously missing from -'s one-way record account, too.

 

Mr. -'s account does not mention the extra care it would have taken to cross such ladders-especially while wearing only TRACK SHOES on his ascent, or on the descent with crampons. This issue would have caused delays of some seconds or minutes, especially if exhausted, and it surely would have deserved comment based upon the minutia noted throughout Mr. -'s account.It is a federal crime in Mt. Rainier National Park to take/borrow anything that does not belong to a person, or if that person "borrows" it without permission. - admitted his witnesses borrowed the ladders for the use of his climb. The same would go for the ladders that were left on the top of Disappointment; they were "borrowed," then returned.

Somehow - a few quick draws, too small to see with the naked eye from the picnic area across the way where hundreds of folks have parked their cars in a fully developed area is excruciating for you, while a huge hunk of metal left all summer in a wilderness area doesn't get a sideways glance. Hypocrite.

 

They have your picture right here Gladys:

gladys_kravitz.jpg

 

i gots about 30 quickclips for sale that I found. name your price. will trade for dank or stronger, or a cool hat.

Mike, have you found any North Face VE24 and VE25 dome tents or 850 fill 4 season Denali-thick sleeping bags that folks have just left on public land abandoned like so much trash? Sometimes people leave this shit littering the entire floor of the once pristine Yosemite Valley or the grasslands near Smith Rock. They just leave this shit laying around because they are too damn lazy to put it back in their car every morning, so they just leave it laying on public land for days and weeks on end. Total eyesore! It's a disgrace! Right Dawg?

 

Looking for quality stuff in the $10 and $20 range or will trade an 8 ball in case you can turn something up in Little Cottonwood Canyon or elsewhere.

 

Ciao!

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One last thing...if you're sick of the "horse-beating", you are always free to skip any and all posts authored by "Raindawg". Have a nice day.

 

The man's got a point, "ignore user" is definitely an option, though many people seem reluctant to use it for fear of missing a little drama or entertainment. Sort of like people can't help but clip the bolts when they're there, few seem to practice the "you don't have to clip them if they offend you" solution that some offer.

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Of much greater import to me is the fact we have three threads in different forums on this same topic. I wanna merge 'em, but where do they belong?

 

Climbers Board?

Rock Climbing?

Oregon Cascades?

Spray?

 

Or maybe even Sensitivo so we can spread a little oil on these turbulent "should have beat them up" waters...

 

 

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Here's another scenario:

 

Indignant Smith dudes:

"What are you doing up there?"

"Why are you cleaning the draws?"

 

Raindawg:

"I'm cleaning up the selfish, route-blocking mess some siege-climbers seemed to have abandoned."

 

Indignant Smith dudes:

"Do you know who draws those are? Are they yours?"

 

Raindawg:

"No I don't nor do I care. They are being taken down and the owners can claim them near the the base or with the park officials."

 

Indignant Smith dudes:

"Those are our draws and we climb 5.14a."

 

Raindawg:

"If you can prove that they are really yours, you can have them now in hopes that in the future you'll be more thoughtful about gratuitously leaving your crap suspended from the rock until you feel like you're through with it. If you can't prove they're yours, you can try to convince the park officials and while you're at it, explain why you think it's appropriate to do what you did."

 

Indignant Smith dudes: "Yah, but you don't understand! Me and my friends are working on a 5.14a! You know how hard that is? We can do whatever we want! It's Smith Rocks!"

 

 

:lmao: That is hilarious.

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an even better question is why is there so much energy used for this discussion. The emotion and the time spent on one guy stealing a dozen or so draws. I mean, come on, if it was a set of cams, then I could understand.

 

plus, I don't know the would be gear victim, but I would guess he got the draws on some sweet pro deal or bro deal. Does it really comes down to the fact that he has to put the draws back up there?

 

Getting mad at 12 draws times $8/draw = $96. What happens when the tax man or mortgage company takes thousands away from you?

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How is the notion of property abstract? I'd say the notion of property is regarded as a pretty concrete reality, certainly in America.

 

it seems to me that the very act of thinking about something is abstractive. does that mean "property" is an abstract in itself? only if you think about it! but seriously, it seems that possessiveness is built on an entirely primal drive, the drive to consume and devour and possess, perhaps older than the first prokaryote, older than the big bang, and perhaps (perhaps), it makes sense to collectively and legally cater to such a primitive powerful drive to some degree. i personally think we cater wayyyy too much, with our fetishizing of "property", "ownership" and the like, institutionalizing it to such a degree that we all take it as concrete and a given: the only possibility (look at wealth distribution, in america especially). also look at your statement above (also note the role the word "regard" plays in your thinking).

 

personally, i think it's madness, this "mine mine mine". do i live my personal abstraction in its ideal form? no. i sometimes get irritated when my wife drinks the last of the cocoa puffs. yes, she drinks them. i did smile when my van got stolen. especially when i found it, and it was full of blankets and such (provided a home to some kids, judging by the cd's left behind. plus, i liked speakerbox!). but, i also suffer from road-rage. this is truly suffering.

Edited by Kimmo

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Getting mad at 12 draws times $8/draw = $96. What happens when the tax man or mortgage company takes thousands away from you?

 

If the tax man or morgage man comes for your money it's because you signed a morgage agreement or you owe taxes on your profits. There's no correlation between stealing and making obligatory payments.

 

After I watched the video and decided to read the text I had no idea this thief would get a defense. "He saved the route from selfish siege climbers!" "Draws aren't really worth that much anyways." That's pretty stupid.

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After I watched the video and decided to read the text I had no idea this thief would get a defense. "He saved the route from selfish siege climbers!" "Draws aren't really worth that much anyways." That's pretty stupid.

 

Why does anyone think I am defending this guy? My last point is that people are getting all excited about nothing. My first point is that hypocrisy exists in our climbing community.

 

From what I get, FW is not defending him but would if his actions were based on beliefs other than greed and stealing for his own good.

 

Stupid is reading and not thinking. Stupid is letting your emotions and own notions cloud your mind when listening to others. Stupid is doing the same thing an expecting a different response.

 

If you want to get excited (actually saddened) about something, go look at the Victim of War thread. Then reply if this theft is really something to bother with.

 

Edited by genepires

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To me it seemed like your post was saying,

 

"Big deal, they probably got em pro dealed anyways, and it's not like they were cams so who cares? People get robbed for way more everyday!"

 

That sounded like a position of defense towards the culprit, sorry if I misunderstood you. And I didn't mean to suggest you were stupid, if I did.

 

I agree, issues of petty theivery definetly pale in comparison to the tragedies of wartime victims.

Edited by Rafe1234

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How is the notion of property abstract? I'd say the notion of property is regarded as a pretty concrete reality, certainly in America.

 

it seems to me that the very act of thinking about something is abstractive. does that mean "property" is an abstract in itself? only if you think about it! but seriously, it seems that possessiveness is built on an entirely primal drive, the drive to consume and devour and possess, perhaps older than the first prokaryote, older than the big bang, and perhaps (perhaps), it makes sense to collectively and legally cater to such a primitive powerful drive to some degree. i personally think we cater wayyyy too much, with our fetishizing of "property", "ownership" and the like, institutionalizing it to such a degree that we all take it as concrete and a given: the only possibility (look at wealth distribution, in america especially). also look at your statement above (also note the role the word "regard" plays in your thinking).

 

personally, i think it's madness, this "mine mine mine". do i live my personal abstraction in its ideal form? no. i sometimes get irritated when my wife drinks the last of the cocoa puffs. yes, she drinks them. i did smile when my van got stolen. especially when i found it, and it was full of blankets and such (provided a home to some kids, judging by the cd's left behind. plus, i liked speakerbox!). but, i also suffer from road-rage. this is truly suffering.

 

Are you a philosophy major or something?

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In terms of theft it isn't a huge monetary loss, but theft is theft. A convenience store owner has the right to call the cops if you walk in and rip off a packet of gum. Then again he may just post a video of his staff questioning you outside his store then post it online for other shopkeepers to see.

 

Everything else in this thread is part of the long history on CC of, "debate," when it comes to bolting.

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maybe it has to do with there being nothing else better going on. I certainly watch this daily for lack of anything better. We need a Colin Haley or some other bad ass TR!

 

I'm just cranky cause I watched 20 minutes of 9/11 you tube videos last night.

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Gene, I think its more about civil behavior than the dollars involved. People behave poorly at crags all the time, whether its stealing draws, leaving balls of used tape, cigarette butts, or poor poop etiquette. What's special here is that someone got their comeuppance in a very public manner, and it didn't involve the sort of fisticuffs internet tough guys like to spray about.

 

If you want to get excited (actually saddened) about something, go look at the Victim of War thread. Then reply if this theft is really something to bother with.

 

I completely agree.

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How is the notion of property abstract? I'd say the notion of property is regarded as a pretty concrete reality, certainly in America.

 

it seems to me that the very act of thinking about something is abstractive. does that mean "property" is an abstract in itself? only if you think about it! but seriously, it seems that possessiveness is built on an entirely primal drive, the drive to consume and devour and possess, perhaps older than the first prokaryote, older than the big bang, and perhaps (perhaps), it makes sense to collectively and legally cater to such a primitive powerful drive to some degree. i personally think we cater wayyyy too much, with our fetishizing of "property", "ownership" and the like, institutionalizing it to such a degree that we all take it as concrete and a given: the only possibility (look at wealth distribution, in america especially). also look at your statement above (also note the role the word "regard" plays in your thinking).

 

personally, i think it's madness, this "mine mine mine". do i live my personal abstraction in its ideal form? no. i sometimes get irritated when my wife drinks the last of the cocoa puffs. yes, she drinks them. i did smile when my van got stolen. especially when i found it, and it was full of blankets and such (provided a home to some kids, judging by the cd's left behind. plus, i liked speakerbox!). but, i also suffer from road-rage. this is truly suffering.

 

Are you a philosophy major or something?

 

Obviously just some kook who believes that maybe stealing is OK as long as you take it from the indigenous people, or those 'foreigners' that don't believe in your brand of Christianity.

 

Take the Chinese as one example if you don't want to use America as one. Take over Tibet, use Christian 'charity' to dilute their culture into mush and call it God's work, will, plan, mysterious design or some such double speak.

 

Now create some 'abstract' like church, state, marriage, ownership. We 'need' church to guide us, state to keep order, marriage to make our 'love' responsible, and ownership for a false sense of individualism.

 

We only own the usefulness of something. If something isn't in use its utility is lost. A child once asked what the purpose of life is. They were told the purpose of life is to raise babies. To truly comprehend the reality of this statement flies in the face of all abstracts. That the only true reality in life is to fornicate and have babies: this is natures only mandate.

 

Obviously this is too simple minded for 'modern' man; we need to muck it up a bit to make it more interesting. We need entertainment! The church 'needs' forbidden fruit for its construct of evil to work. The state needs enemies to fight and laws to be broken. People need ownership to have identities--we identify with objects--my car, home, wife, family, time, gun.

 

It's not your time, it's my time, and your making me late by your crappy driving. It's not stolen, it's appropriated from those polytheistic heathen animals. It's not your land buddy, it's mine, now go back to 'your' country.

 

 

This guy says it way better than me; U.G. Krishnamurti:U.G. emphasized the impossibility and non-necessity of any human change, radical or mundane. These assertions, he stated, cannot be considered as a "teaching", that is, something intended to be used to bring about a change. He insisted that the body and its actions are already perfect, and he considered attempts to change or mold the body as violations of the peace and the harmony that is already there. The psyche or self or mind, an entity which he denied as having any being, is composed of nothing but the "demand" to bring about change in the world, in itself, or in both. Furthermore, human self-consciousness is not a thing, but a movement, one characterized by "perpetual malcontent" and a "fascist insistence" on its own importance and survival. Source-Wikipedia

Edited by Lucky Larry

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I've seen those draws all over Smith too. I'm assuming the guy was new to Smith, and didn't know the ethics and accepted practices there. Had he been around for awhile, he would have known not to take them. I see those draws and think:"Wow, maybe I'll be good enough someday to try that route." I see very little difference between a bolt and a hangar, and the same with a draw on it.

 

Both situations involve other peoples money hanging on the cliff, basically available for public use. But removing either the draw, or the hangar and bolt (and I've seen both done) is wrong, at least in the eyes of most experienced climbers.

 

I can see Raindawgs point of view also. The hangars and draws we leave on cliffs do offend some people who come to the parks for solitude and bird watching. It's easy to assume we are the only users of parks with cliffs, since there are so many of us. But those non-climbers who find our tools offensive deserve consideration as well, and they also vote, and complain very loudly when we piss them off...witness some of the closures of climbing areas, and restrictions on drilling.

 

So a little common sense goes a long way. He shouldn't have stolen the gear, but depending on his point of view, it may be a good wakeup call that the smith crowd is getting a bit trashy and overconfident in just who owns the park.

 

I also agree with Raindawg (hate it when I do that) about beating the guy up. Grow up! Only on the internet can you get away with that kind of posturing.

 

Violence is never the answer. Violence leads to more violence, and it solves nothing. Look at the Middle East. They hate each other going back 2000 years. I thought the guys in the video handled themselves with great restraint.

 

Instead of fighting over some stupid draws, y'all should have come to jtree for xmas. Peace and love, and the bolts are too far apart to stick clip. Half the time there are no anchors on top.

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Well somebody should make a call over to Miguels in the RRG to let the climbers know they should take down the Hundreds of draws hanging from each crag. As far as im concerned, fixed draws go hand in hand with bolts, at sport crags that feature *high quality* bolted routes of a difficult grade. I personally love walking up to the motherlode cave, or to the driveby crag in the red and seeing draws hanging/ chalked holds. Gets me psyched to climb hard. Other destinations across the country are worthy too. Such as smith. Just my honest opinion. Keyword: opinion (so simmer down there, future "quoter")

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