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luvshaker

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sounds like kimmo is applying for the position as raindawg's lieutenant that was left vacant when pope retired from cc.com...

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i'm not interested in what you call a "discussion", raindawg, because it won't be a discussion in terms of a give-and-take of ideas but rather an opportunity for you to rant and for me to listen to you rant, and i certainly have better things to do. enjoy wandering around in the fog.

 

I guess you didn't really have that many better things to do because you posted a response. Go on your way now.

 

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It took you a half an hour to come up with that? I thought you were a super intellectual type. Have fun in the hills. Be sure to walk all the way there and only eat foods that were provided by nature along the way. Otherwise, you are still part of the problem and leaving a trace in the form of more pollution in our mountains. I'm sure you already considered your eco-footprint while you walk the distance (in 4 ft of snow - both ways)in your home made Moccasins/clothing that you whipped up from bear skin off the bear you killed bare handed . Go hardman, go. We worship your dedication to such a pure style of living. Someday, we will all be so cool, if we can keep up with you. Then again, I'm sure no climber will EVER live up to your rigorous approval standards... You will surely find something that makes even the most trad/old skool climbers less than you and your ideal. This strategy will keep you on the top of the pile and the holiest of the holies. At least in your own mind, anyway.

 

What an utterly shallow and naive response; more insult than substance as usual.

So care to address how sport-bolting jives with a leave-little/no-trace ethic subscribed by most every other outdoor sport?

 

Feel free not to answer until you've thought about it seriously for a while.

 

 

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ohmygodicantbelieveialmostmissedthisdiscussionimgladicamebytocheckthingsoutandloandbeholdmyfavoritetopicwasplayingatthelittlescreenBUTSERIOUSLY

 

i like dwayner and his perspective. always have. people take his position so amazingly personally, but i've always appreciated it. not only his position, but the extent to which it will goad so many here. ok so maybe it's a little single note, but a single note played sincerely beats multiple notes played ignorantly (or notes i care not to listen to).

 

like native american drumming.

 

 

The position of clean climbing is an honorable one, but it's hard to give it numbers or values to determine the difference between using bolts and hanging draws in terms of environmental or ethical cost. If you could attach values to clean climbing and bolting, and other impacts regarding climbing, access of the crags by the climbing community alone would certainly dwarf any impact of putting bolts in rocks.

 

You can't really make the argument "It's bad for the environment.". Therefore, the postion is purely based on opinion, and the postion takes a conservative and authoritative tone in the face of a growing, progressing, and passionate society of climbers. There are people who feel that the modern evolution of climbing is positive, bolts and draws and all, and there are people who feel that many of it's aspects are heretical to the ethics by which climbing was born. The difference between the two opinions is that one seeks to impose restrictions on the other, without reciprocity. Which, I think, is why people get fired up about the reactionary argument against the shape of modern climbing.

 

And comparing putting bolts in rocks to opening Mt Ranier National Park to ORV use is fuckin ridiculous.

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the position of clean climbing is a stupid one. passive and active protection are products of an industrial society and as such don't fit the hippy-dippy definition of natural any more than bolts do. maybe it would if c4s were made from hemp, but they aren't. in all likelihood the environmental impact of all routes being bolted and permanently equipped with quickdraws would result in a much smaller carbon footprint overall for the sport than everyone owning a double set of cams and stoppers. if such were the case, then climbers would only need shoes, harness, rope and belay device to go climbing and the energy and raw materials used to manufacture all those widgets and gadgets could be saved for some other use or simply not used at all!

 

 

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the position of clean climbing is a stupid one. passive and active protection are products of an industrial society and as such don't fit the hippy-dippy definition of natural any more than bolts do. maybe it would if c4s were made from hemp, but they aren't. in all likelihood the environmental impact of all routes being bolted and permanently equipped with quickdraws would result in a much smaller carbon footprint overall for the sport than everyone owning a double set of cams and stoppers. if such were the case, then climbers would only need shoes, harness, rope and belay device to go climbing and the energy and raw materials used to manufacture all those widgets and gadgets could be saved for some other use or simply not used at all!

 

 

 

my dad's carbon footprint is bigger than your dads carbon footprint :)

Edited by pink

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So care to address how sport-bolting jives with a leave-little/no-trace ethic subscribed by most every other outdoor sport?

 

 

I don't believe that leave no trace exists.

 

Most sport climbing jives fine enough with me for leave little trace. What are the outdoor sports that qualify to compare it to? Motorcycle riding? Snowmobiling? Mountain biking? Hiking? Hunting? Yachting? NASCAR? Beach Volleyball? Did you really mean sports?

 

Look, sport climbing has more impact than some other kinds of climbing mostly because it is so popular. And it is popular because it is fun and relatively safe. I personally think that is ok. The impact to the environment is small relative to the enjoyment that we as sport climbers get. I understand you don't feel the same way and as far as I can tell don't believe in relative truths, but I am comforted to know that there are many, many places left in the world and in our area to have a solitary, no bolt climbing experience that you and I and others appreciate and seek out. And many of these places that have that non-sport climbing experience are protected both naturally due to logistics as well as legally through national parks and wilderness areas. It is true that you will not be able to have that experience anywhere you want and it may take more work than sport climbing, but that is the cost of being in the minority - tyranny of the majority you know...

Edited by orion_sonya

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somebody make it 200px-Stop_sign_MUTCD_svg.png
I've noticed you gone off and gotten all growed up since ya got hitched a while back... Yer spray is so tame and calm. Pink not stirring pot, WTF? :wave:

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I wonder how many of you sporto's would complain if, or more likely when, via ferrata's become common. Safer, more dumbed-down and even a shorter learning-curve than sport-climbing! How about a nice cabled and laddered girdle traverse of El-Cap? Or a "progressive" route parallel to The Nose that the "average" climber could enjoy?

 

414ferrata21.gif

"Hey you! Got a problem with this???"

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I wonder how many of you sporto's would complain if, or more likely when, via ferrata's become common. Safer, more dumbed-down and even a shorter learning-curve than sport-climbing! How about a nice cabled and laddered girdle traverse of El-Cap? Or a "progressive" route parallel to The Nose that the "average" climber could enjoy?

 

414ferrata21.gif

"Hey you! Got a problem with this???"

BTW, how has the Via Ferrarta ruined our lifes? I still have yet to run into a genuine one. Sure looks like there is plenty of rock left without them.

 

Seems to me, in a hundred years from now, your great grandson's protege, will dig up the remains covered in the big blast of aught-twelve. This archeological discovery may prove to be as important as finding the lost ark.

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I wonder how many of you sporto's would complain if, or more likely when, via ferrata's become common. Safer, more dumbed-down and even a shorter learning-curve than sport-climbing! How about a nice cabled and laddered girdle traverse of El-Cap? Or a "progressive" route parallel to The Nose that the "average" climber could enjoy?

 

414ferrata21.gif

"Hey you! Got a problem with this???"

Yeah, there has been a via ferrata epidemic since those punks started rap bolting. I heard from a guy, that knows someone over at super tacos, and he said the park service was going to put in one on Beacon Rock that will help fund the falcon rescues .

 

Enough is enough. STOP THE MADDNESS! !

 

Together, we can end the desecration. I've been trying to compile my list of via ferrata's that we need to destroy, but am currently overwhelmed by the daunting task of where to start.200px-Stop_sign_MUTCD_svg1.png

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THEY WARNED US, WE KNEW BETTER, AND NOW WE HAVE TO UNDUE THE HORRIFIC WAKE OF DESTRUCTION LEFT BEHIND.

 

I heard from a guy (who's uber sic strong, bro-brah hard-gnarl dude), who is best friends with Sharmwa's X girlfriend's spotter, that the government bail out money was going to create jobs and solve the heath care crisis by installing VIA FERRATAS. :shock:

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It took you a half an hour to come up with that? I thought you were a super intellectual type. Have fun in the hills. Be sure to walk all the way there and only eat foods that were provided by nature along the way. Otherwise, you are still part of the problem and leaving a trace in the form of more pollution in our mountains. I'm sure you already considered your eco-footprint while you walk the distance (in 4 ft of snow - both ways)in your home made Moccasins/clothing that you whipped up from bear skin off the bear you killed bare handed . Go hardman, go. We worship your dedication to such a pure style of living. Someday, we will all be so cool, if we can keep up with you. Then again, I'm sure no climber will EVER live up to your rigorous approval standards... You will surely find something that makes even the most trad/old skool climbers less than you and your ideal. This strategy will keep you on the top of the pile and the holiest of the holies. At least in your own mind, anyway.

 

What an utterly shallow and naive response; more insult than substance as usual.

So care to address how sport-bolting jives with a leave-little/no-trace ethic subscribed by most every other outdoor sport?

 

Feel free not to answer until you've thought about it seriously for a while.

 

Dude, DAWG, let's face it, if you are out and about in the woods you WILL have an impact. Leave no trace, great catch word, but you do leave a trace everywhere you go in life. YOU have (along with all of us) negative impact on more than just the environment. It's just so much fun to see where some people draw the line in order to inflate their own egos. Please tell me, aside from eschewing bolts/sport climbing, how are you removing your "trace" in life? Not just on your favorite, old school route that nobody could get up today if'n it were not fer the newly installed Via Ferrata, but in your day to day impact of just pursuing such a selfish sport/endeavor in the first place?

 

BTW, the whole "little" thing that "jives" with sport climbing is the IN MOST CASES bolts are "little", very little. That, for the most part, are only seen/used by climbers. Yes, let's try to leave as little impact as possible. But let's NOT, damn the whole idea of using bolts to climb as an excuse to make our own perception of what "climbing" should be universally. Lighten up dude.

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! How about a nice cabled and laddered girdle traverse of El-Cap? Or a "progressive" route parallel to The Nose that the "average" climber could enjoy?

 

 

Seriously, an average climber should be capable of climbing the Nose!

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I wonder how many of you sporto's would complain if, or more likely when, via ferrata's become common. Safer, more dumbed-down and even a shorter learning-curve than sport-climbing! How about a nice cabled and laddered girdle traverse of El-Cap? Or a "progressive" route parallel to The Nose that the "average" climber could enjoy?

 

414ferrata21.gif

"Hey you! Got a problem with this???"

 

this crazy, irrational fear of via ferratas sprouting up everywhere seems to be raindawg's peculiar form of seasonal affective disorder. every fall when the rains arrive, he posts this same picture on cc.com and starts the whole apocalyptic message thing. really, old man, try going on a climbing trip sometime. get outside and see what is really going on. reality isn't nearly as scary as you think it is. you spend too much time cooped up with your fears. open the curtains and let in a little full spectrum light. there are a lot of cool things going on in climbing right now and you are missing all of it hiding in your dark closet.

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So care to address how sport-bolting jives with a leave-little/no-trace ethic subscribed by most every other outdoor sport?

 

 

I don't believe that leave not trace exists.

 

Most sport climbing jives fine enough with me for leave little trace. What are the outdoor sports that qualify to compare it to? Motorcycle riding? Snowmobiling? Mountain biking? Hiking? Hunting? Yachting? NASCAR? Beach Volleyball? Did you really mean sports?

 

Look, sport climbing has more impact than some other kinds of climbing mostly because it is so popular. And it is popular because it is fun and relatively safe. I personally think that is ok. The impact to the environment is small relative to the enjoyment that we as sport climbers get. I understand you don't feel the same way and as far as I can tell don't believe in relative truths,

 

Well put. I think the only other 'sport' with adherence to LNT is hiking. By which you aren't leaving a trace because of a massive amount of impact already done, trails, campsites, etc.

 

Relative truth is important to undestand in any debate. Only through understanding something can you hope to gain control of it use it to your advantage. Don't be dogmatic. The proponents of bolting have given clear and legitimate rebuttals to the opponent camp regarding environment, ethics, etc. And you apparently refuse to acknowledge those. All that is left is to make an unsubstantiated claim that bolting ethics will invariably lead to a Euro-circus of via ferratta all over the states, consuming all spirit of climbing in its path! There are no signs of this currently happening.

 

 

I know it's hard to admit you're wrong, but you are..at least partly.

 

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ohmygodicantbelieveialmostmissedthisdiscussionimgladicamebytocheckthingsoutandloandbeholdmyfavoritetopicwasplayingatthelittlescreenBUTSERIOUSLY

 

i like dwayner and his perspective. always have. people take his position so amazingly personally, but i've always appreciated it. not only his position, but the extent to which it will goad so many here. ok so maybe it's a little single note, but a single note played sincerely beats multiple notes played ignorantly (or notes i care not to listen to).

 

like native american drumming.

 

i realize how the above could be misinterpreted.

 

To clarify: I like native american drumming.

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i like dwayner and his perspective. always have. people take his position so amazingly personally, but i've always appreciated it. not only his position, but the extent to which it will goad so many here. ok so maybe it's a little single note, but a single note played sincerely beats multiple notes played ignorantly (or notes i care not to listen to).

 

does a single note played sincerely and ignorantly beat a symphony of notes that you don't care to listen to?

 

really, who doesn't like native American drumming?

 

side note: B and D got our new si draws - you up for the work party?!

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How about a nice cabled and laddered girdle traverse of El-Cap? Or a "progressive" route parallel to The Nose that the "average" climber could enjoy?

 

Now your talking!!

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Most of you folks...including "El Jefe", "RuMR, "Drederek" etc.(kevbone is in his own special category)

 

Thanks Rain. You know I am not attacking you personally. I happen to like the fact that you have such a strong opinion, even if I dissagree with it.

 

:wave:

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