JosephH Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 The point isn't about the progress of any Sharma-like individual, but rather it's a comment about the 'progress' of the overall climbing demographic it takes to produce one like him. Or, to put it another way, in 1976 you could randomly select 10,000 folks who'd been climbing for more than three years, hand them a rack at the base to the Bastille Crack, and most of them would be able to get up it. Do the same today and it would be interesting to see what the percentage would be in comparison. "Progress" would be if a higher percentage today could get up it than in 1976, but I suspect you'd instead find a remarkable, if not overwhelming, decline in that ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drederek Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 P.S. I'd love to see a TR from you doin somethin, anything, recently. I read all of yours. They didn't say much. The pot calling the kettle black! God I love this place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoodrat Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 While doing some reading for one of my Psych classes, I happened upon this and thought of Raindawg This type of man elevates objective reality, or an objectively oriented intellectual formula, into the ruling principle not only for himself but for his whole environment. By this formula good and evil are measured, and beauty and ugliness determined. Everything that agrees with this formula is right, everything that contradicts it is wrong.... Because this formula seems to embody the entire meaning of life, it is made into a universal law which must be put into effect everywhere all the time, both individually and collectively. Just as the extroverted thinking type subordinates himself to his formula, so, for their own good, everybody round him must obey it too, for whoever refuses to obey it is wrong—he is resisting the universal law, and is therefore unreasonable, immoral, and without a conscience. His moral code forbids him to tolerate exceptions; his ideal must under all circumstances be realized.... This is not from any great love of his neighbor, but from the higher standpoint of justice and truth.... 'Oughts' and 'musts' bulk large in this programme. If the formula is broad enough, this type may play a very useful role in social life as a reformer or public prosecutor or purifier of conscience.... But the more rigid the formula, the more he develops into a martinet, a quibbler, and a prig, who would like to force himself and others into one mould. Here we have the two extremes between which the majority of these types move. (C. G. Jung, Psychological Types, 347.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Back in the olden days, when I learned how to drive, we did not have fancy seatbelts, air bags, or high tech computers. We took our lumps and shook off the dust when we crashed. Nowadays, these young punks can drive "safely", dumming down the driving experience to the lowest common denominator. Course, we always drove uphill in 3 feet of snow, too. I'll be damned I'm gonna roll that way. Seat belts are trash and an entire waste of resources... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitchaserCJB Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Did you driving without a seatbelt impact anyone except yourself? Answer that and reexamine your metaphor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Did you driving without a seatbelt impact anyone except yourself? Answer that and reexamine your metaphor. who said anything bout a metifer, I thought we was talkin trash? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el jefe Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 raindawg posting his usual drivel re: "clean" climbing and joseph his imaginary statistics -- a clear sign that the rainy season has arrived in the northwest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitchaserCJB Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Did you driving without a seatbelt impact anyone except yourself? Answer that and reexamine your metaphor. who said anything bout a metifer, I thought we was talkin trash? ah yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 In America the more common the denominator the lower it will become. It's the demographic reality of our culture as are the [convenient] ethics promoting the 'common good' and 'community service'. That and hero worship, where an incredibly small percentage of participants become idealized stand-ins for the popular good of all despite the fact they no way represent the capabilities of the aspiring majority demographic. But hey, a biner on every key chain baby and hot climbers in pharmaceutical ads - hell, we're livin' large now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 raindawg posting his usual drivel re: "clean" climbing and joseph his imaginary statistics -- a clear sign that the rainy nowseason has arrived in the northwest. when the rains set in, I dream of Bacon slabs frying... Serenity now, serenity now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el jefe Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 JosephH: blahblahblahblahsportclimbingruinedeverythingblahblahblahblah me: sounds like it must be raining Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 The new generation of bolt clipping, plastic pulling "unethical" kids are out warming up on lines you'll never even project. Producing each Sharma today requires a base of about 200,000 5.11 climbers who will never touch an ice screw or a piece of pro and who would piss on themselves at the prospect of being handed a rack at the base of your average old school 5.7. Progress? I guess so, if you ignore the overall demographics and get heavily into hero worship. :lmao:joseph, you are so full of shit it's laughable... kids these days, gym trained and beast strong, have absolutely no issue hiking trad routes...let's just be clear about that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 zzzzzzzzz... snore.... fart.... Same old broken record, in the age of mp3s. And you seem to be deaf. I feel sorry for you, letting your "principles" get in the way of the obvious progression of the sport. While you sit at home and rant about others ethics or lack thereof. The new generation of bolt clipping, plastic pulling "unethical" kids are out warming up on lines you'll never even project. Sorry for me? What you wrote above is SAD! Got a problem with having principles???? By the way, change doesn't automatically = "progress" or "good". The average backpacker starting at least 30 years ago, if not well before, has had a far clearer understanding of outdoor ethics than the typical modern sport climber. How many other outdoor sports find it perfectly legitimate to add stuff and leave stuff, e.g. bolts and quick-draws? The clean-climbing revolution was overwhelmed by the safety, short learning-curve and convenience of sport-climbing. Proud of yourself? Climbing is climbing dude. Trad, Sport, Ice, Bouldering, Even plastic. All the "REAL" climbers out there know it. And you know them all, eh? And you also find yourself comfortable defining who is a "REAL" climber, too? Do you issue a certificate? I shake my head in wonder and dismay. P.S. I'd love to see a TR from you doin somethin, anything, recently. I read all of yours. They didn't say much. more than yours... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Sport climbing hasn't 'ruined' anything, it just fostered a massive bolt-bound demographic. That demographic has an unquenchable thirst for new bolted routes that overtime has and will continue to threaten and encroach on trad areas. Think I'm wrong? Check out Boulder Canyon or wait and we'll see the results of another twenty years. Or is it your contention that one day they'll just decide there are plenty of routes already and we don't need to go out and bolt more of them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 ...not true... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 ...not true... Of course it's all RuMR and unfounded innuendo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 that's right sucka...there's teenagers (and preteens) hiking the hardest stuff around... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitchaserCJB Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Sport climbing hasn't 'ruined' anything, it just fostered a massive bolt-bound demographic. That demographic has an unquenchable thirst for new bolted routes that overtime has and will continue to threaten and encroach on trad areas. Think I'm wrong? Check out Boulder Canyon or wait and we'll see the results of another twenty years. Or is it your contention that one day they'll just decide there are plenty of routes already and we don't need to go out and bolt more of them? I hope you're wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el jefe Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 dude, of course he's wrong. most of what joseph posts here is "trash". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 that's right sucka...there's teenagers (and preteens) hiking the hardest stuff around... Yeah, hard to beat the strength to weight ratio, the challenge is of course, to still hike that shit after puberty and adolescence. Have seen that turn more than couple of hikers into wrestlers until they either bailed or put in the work to recover as young adults. I hope you're wrong. A drive up Boulder Canyon says it's just getting warmed up. And hell, U.S. via ferratas are only just birthing but no doubt will be starting to branch out in the coming years (can you say Infinite Iron[y]...). They both appeal to a demanding, risk-averse demographic that will not be denied in the coming decades. Can't wait for the day sportos are bitching about via ferrati. dude, of course he's wrong. most of what joseph posts here is "trash". Except it all keeps coming true, or at least it has consistently for the past three decades. I don't expect the next two to be any different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 I'm often ascared when I climb. Whether I am looking down at a bolt fall, or a trad fall, the further away I am from that bolt, or personally placed piece, the more ascared I get. Course, I was as bout as dumnded down as one could be afore I started climbing, which is prolly what drew me to the sport in the first place... In spite of numerous falls/injuries early on my climbing "career", I was still dumb enough to keep at it and now might someday get me an official Dawg-Care Bear Badge. Come on Dawg, throw one of us little guys a bone already. I'm hungry for a hamburger. Better yet a BACON cheese burger... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 that's right sucka...there's teenagers (and preteens) hiking the hardest stuff around... Yeah, hard to beat the strength to weight ratio, the challenge is of course, to still hike that shit after puberty and adolescence. Have seen that turn more than couple of hikers into wrestlers until they either bailed or put in the work to recover as young adults. I hope you're wrong. A drive up Boulder Canyon says it's just getting warmed up. And hell, U.S. via ferratas are only just birthing but no doubt will be starting to branch out in the coming years (can you say Infinite Iron...). They both appeal to a demanding, risk-averse demographic that will not be denied in the coming decades. Can't wait for the day sportos are bitching about via ferrati. dude, of course he's wrong. most of what joseph posts here is "trash". Except it all keeps coming true, or at least it has consistently for the past three decades. I don't expect the next two to be any different. Perception is reality... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 True enough lest we forget high school and collegiate climbing teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 I guess the moral to the story might be: A) Anyone that clips a bolt has no business climbing. B) The world will never see any "real" climbers again, now that bolting has taken ALL the challenge and danger out of climbing. If you climb hard nowadays, even if you place gear, you musta cheated your way up the dumby-gumby system and only do well with "artificial" means of ascending a chunk of stone. C) There is absolutely no rock left in the world worth climbing if it requires a/some bolt(s). And, even if if there were, placing bolts would ruin the challenge and danger from the climbing experience. D) All of the above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Nah, it's just means that unbolted rock within a two hour driving radius of every metropolitan area big enough to host a gym that folks want to stay that way will likely need to be protected by land managers or the guberment in the coming decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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