summitchaserCJB Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 (edited) Thanks all for the advice. I will definitely read that link on Supertopo and check out Freedom of the Hills. And as for VERY basic gear: I only have a free climbing rack right now. I don't have a lot of extra money. What are the most essential pieces that I can buy to climb basic clean easy aid? For basic gear (in addition to the aiders, daisies, and jugs), get a fifi hook (it's cheap). Then for pieces in addition to your free rack: DMM offsets (brass and aluminum) will be used ALL THE TIME, get a cam-hook or two, and some tiny nuts (sometimes you can get a great deal on these from someone who tried and didn't like aid). After you start making some money, start filling in the rack with small and offset cams and ball nuts. Who says I don't make money now. No, all joking aside, I'll have to think about this whole aid thing. It's fun and time consuming. It's great for bad weather. I'll look into those offsets. I might be able to get them on ..... Edited November 4, 2010 by summitchaserCJB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJRiha Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 My one advice, only use one daisy chain. If the aid is not difficult, your fifi is probably connected directly to harness. So you are then using the daisy chains to safeguard dropping each set of aiders, You run the risk of having a daisy chain on the lower piece as well as the upper piece at the same time. If that happens and the upper piece pulls, you fall onto the lower static daisy chain....ouch and the rope through the lower piece is not going to do you any dynamic good. I say this because I have seen this bad technique used several times. comments? anyone? anyone? If you're on the top piece, that means it's either: 1) Bomber, no need to test, 2) Tested, or 3) Downright scary and moving on to it is necessary. If it pulls, yes, you would daisy fall on the lower piece if using two daisy chains. But it's unlikely that a piece would pull between the time you move onto the upper piece, and retrieve the aider from the lower piece (you bounce tested the piece that you're on, right?). I would consider clipping the rope to the lower piece and unhooking the daisy prior to moving onto a piece in option #3, but one daisy is too risky for my personal preference (dropped aider) and it just adds another step to keep clipping and unclipping the daisy. If you think it's a bad technique though, you might want to inform Chris McNamara that he has it wrong in his "How to Big Wall" website and video series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitchaserCJB Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 (edited) I see thanks Malcom. Makes perfect sense. So you have to switch which aider your daisy is on? I like the idea of one aider, basically because that is how I learned. Edited November 4, 2010 by summitchaserCJB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJRiha Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 I see thanks Malcom. Makes perfect sense. So you have to switch which aider your daisy is on? I like the idea of one aider, basically because that is how I learned. I climb with 2 daisies. One for each aider or pair of aiders (if using 2 etriers per piece). No switching daisies. As I said, I would consider unhooking the daisy from aider if I thought my top piece was crap and I risked a daisy fall (but would clip the rope to the lower piece first to eliminate the risk of losing the lower aider/piece). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketparrotlet Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 So what I'm getting from this (with two daisy technique): you have two daisy chains, each clipped to an aider. Sequence: Put in piece Clip aider to piece (is the daisy on the same biner as the aider?) Move up on aiders Clip piece to rope Put in next piece Bounce test next piece (what's the best way to do this?) Clip second aider/daisy to second piece Move to second piece Unclip aider/daisy from first piece etc. How close is this to correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJRiha Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 So what I'm getting from this (with two daisy technique): you have two daisy chains, each clipped to an aider. Sequence: Put in piece Clip aider to piece (is the daisy on the same biner as the aider?) Move up on aiders Clip piece to rope Put in next piece Bounce test next piece (what's the best way to do this?) Clip second aider/daisy to second piece Move to second piece Unclip aider/daisy from first piece etc. How close is this to correct? Sounds like a strange sequence. I do this, but there are other sequences: -Move up current aider as high as possible (using fifi, biner, or draw as necessary to maintain balance) -Place new piece -Clip other daisy/aider to new piece -Bounce test new piece if questionable by stomping on aider, then fully weighting and bouncing up and down (keep other foot in previous aider and hand in grab loop to prevent daisy fall if bounce test fails) -Move onto new aider -Remove other aider/daisy from previous piece -Clip draw/rope to previous piece Repeat until you are bored. If I'm doing really easy aid (City Park), I'll have daisy on the aider biner to avoid cluster, but if I even THINK I'm going to disconnect the daisy, I'll have a separate biner for the daisy to aider connection and aider to piece connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberdinka Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 My one advice, only use one daisy chain. If the aid is not difficult, your fifi is probably connected directly to harness. So you are then using the daisy chains to safeguard dropping each set of aiders, You run the risk of having a daisy chain on the lower piece as well as the upper piece at the same time. If that happens and the upper piece pulls, you fall onto the lower static daisy chain....ouch and the rope through the lower piece is not going to do you any dynamic good. I say this because I have seen this bad technique used several times. comments? anyone? anyone? I second Seans advice. After climbing a few walls this season using all types of techniques this is by far the safest and most efficent. Still have two daisies on my harness for jugging, backing myself up at anchors and for climbing when there are consecutive hook moves or on very steep terrain. Other than that the second stays out of the way. The only purpose of the daisy to keep from loosing your gear and etrier when testing and before clipping the rope to the piece. Yes, this means your etriers aren't always tethered and you could possibly drop them but you won't (do you tether all your gear when freeclimbing?) and if you do hopefully you're packing a spare. The main advantage is avoidance of daisy falls. Really if the system your using can result in static falls on gear your probably doing it wrong. It's also much much faster and far less of a clusterfuck then dealing with 2 seperate daisies. Gear: 2 or more etriers (on easy aid I use 2 full length and 2 subaiders which are 3 step shorties, but 2 works fine) 1 daisy (I use an adjustable as its more convient at anchors and while jugging) 1 fifi hook tied in pretty close to the harness (see Chris Macs video about how to high step if you have a fixed length daisy) General Principles: The daisies only purpose is to keep from loosing gear when testing Don't use the daisy at all on bomber pieces C1/C2 The aiders float, i.e. they are not always tethered with the daisy The objective is to hook fifi into the biner on the etrier. 1) Place piece 2) If its a nut or fixed piece clip a quickdraw to it 3) clip your aider into piece (below biner on quickdraw) 4) clip rope into piece your currently on then unclip daisy from it 5) clip daisy to aider if it's not obviously good (I clip it to grab loop) 6) test piece if it's not obviously good 7) get into aider, remove other aider off lower piece (fifi into a step if you need to hang) 8) keep moving until you can fifi into aider biner then one step further repeat Similar process described at MP apparently taught by Hans Florine http://www.mountainproject.com/v/big_wall_and_aid_climbing/speedy_aid_rig_nirvana/106704262 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwalling Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Um... daisy chains are meant to save your ass from taking big whippers too. Not a big deal on easy aid, but on hard aid when stuff fails you will be glad that daisy was attached to the next piece you are working on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberdinka Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 Um... daisy chains are meant to save your ass from taking big whippers too. Not a big deal on easy aid, but on hard aid when stuff fails you will be glad that daisy was attached to the next piece you are working on... Do you mean being tethered in tight to piece your on, so that should the piece your testing blow your held tight to the piece you're on? I've been relying on my fifi and my grip to prevent falling off the piece I'm on though I can see that as being a weak point in the system (it's worked for me plenty though). You can't be meaning real daisy falls?! What style of testing do you use on hard aid Jake? Aiders, daisy? Something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwalling Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 I test using all the methods: bounce testing, daisy testing, fuckness testing, hand jerk testing... just depends on piece. I never recommend daisy chain falls... sorry if thats how I made it sound. Daisy chain falls are pure evil! What I was talking about is kinda off topic, but anyways... What I was referring to was, say you are on a pitch that has bodyweight gear. You have a piece in that you've tested and are standing on, you go to make the next placement and get it going. I clip my daisy into that lots of times (I clip it tight with fifi or biner). Because the piece you are standing on could fail and you are left hanging off the untested piece you were working on. It is likely that it will hold and save you from taking a whipper. I always try and avoid falling because I'm just weird like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberdinka Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 Thanks Jake. "next piece" was the imperative words I glazed over. A long time ago my daisy clipped to the "next piece" actually saved me from a factor 2 fall right through my portaledge when my first piece of the belay (a pin) blew out as I placed a second pin. At that point I figured out I was in an expando corner. I've also blown a pin after testing only to take a pendulum daisy fall onto a bathook! that kept me from going 30' or more. Ridiculous and unlikely shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJRiha Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 I've also blown a pin after testing only to take a pendulum daisy fall onto a bathook! that kept me from going 30' or more. Ridiculous and unlikely shit. Ummm....wow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
111 Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 beware highstepping on shallowly placed hooks. You can leverage them off a flatish ledge. also beware leaning out too far on hooks unless they are really bomber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Aid past a certain point should just be rated R(oulette)1-5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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