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dberdinka

The rhyme and reason behind falcon closures?

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I don't know, Mr. Pink. I agree with you in the respect that over the years I've heard dozens and maybe more stories where protective birds were glaring at climbers passing their nests with no interruption in nesting activities but I am not ready to conclude that the concerns are bogus - if that is what you are saying.

 

i'm not an expert and not really sure the experts are experts, i was just saying that i got charged with something that did not hold up in court. that's all :)

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As I understand it, the pair I posted about, the ones on the Fremont bridge, just showed up. They were not hacked (planted) there as you seem to believe. We're not talking about a building in Pittsburgh or Frisco, I brought up the Fremont bridge specifically. You are saying this pair was hacked and even hacked knowing that they would be in a higher risk environment with the understanding that they would not have the protection which Fish and Wildlife was offering to other nesting pairs? I think that this is make believe on your part. They just showed up one day with no human intervention of any sort. That's how I remember it and the story still goes.

I wasn't speaking of the Fremont pair in particular but of the effort to introduce and attract Peregrines to breeding boxes placed variously on bridges and buildings in urban settings around the country. High bridges and buildings are places where they don't interact with humans directly in a manner of individual humans deliberately approaching their nests.

 

Furthermore, do you think climbers, some of whom were responsible for fetching eggs and being directly responsible for the regeneration of this species when big industry trashed it, would have agreed to hack boxes and closures forever on their very climbing routes had they known that those spots would be later closed during the prime climbing season forever due to their actions? I've talked directly to some of these very guys who rapped down and recovered those oh so rare, valuable and precious eggs and I can answer that for you.

I suspect some would and some wouldn't.

 

Or that they'd have agreed to a closure in violation and in opposition to what they had actually saw with their own eyes and believed about climber/Peregrine interactions capability?

For every anecdotal story you, I and other climbers could come up with relative to seemingly benign climber/Peregrine interactions the biologists can go tit-for-tat with documented incidents of nests being destroyed and eggs and fledges being abandoned.

 

Their routes closed even after the birds had well recovered to the point of being taken off the Endangered species list and appeared to be more common than Red Tail Hawks in those areas?

Would love to see any stat on Peregrines v. Redtails.

 

You think they would have believed they would have done this had they known they would have been exclusively shit on for eternity for doing this kind deed? OK, they would have done it anyway because it was the right thing to do then when the species was an eyeblink of disappearing off the face of the earth, but the government isn't doing the right thing now for them or the birds by shitting exclusively on climbers and allowing the bridge to stay open all those many many years when the bird were oh so rare and precious. Long term there will be resentment and anger that will pressure change not in the way these agency folks would want. That the numbers in opposition to them are not huge makes it seem more manageable for now. Yet build against them and change it will.

"Shitting exclusively on climbers" - pretty dramatic. A better perspective might be Peregrines nest on cliffs and climbers are the only humans who similarly occupy cliffs and are capable of directly disturbing their nests.

 

You should reevaluate what you "think" the facts are JH. They didn't close the Fremont bridge in violation of their own policy's and laws because of political pressure.

 

Political pressure. Period. That's why.

I don't in any respect recall saying politics don't enter into the picture - that's specifically the "law and policy" aspects of it. I've counseled just the opposite; I've been suggesting you guys get a clue and a shred of political savvy. Again, no one in a car on a bridge or in a highrise is in a position to directly disturb a Peregrine nest - hence, a closure for the stated purpose of protecting a nest from such a risk is not something any wildlife agency is going to burn political capital for (just like the tourist trail).

 

By no ones account were Climbers responsible in any way for the near extinction of that species. The reverse is true. It was climbers who rapped in and brought back those so very rare and precious eggs. And the bottom line is that many climbers to this day, who are still getting shit on, needlessly according to most except for yourself perhaps, carry anger and resentment over it. THIS IS WHAT YOU DON'T APPEAR TO UNDERSTAND. Kevin happens to be one of the rare ones haranguing online on a single note. What I say goes for many many more.

Unfortunately for us the cliffs we climb are the natural and most productive habitats for Peregrines, so yeah, we're in the crosshairs more than say kayakers. Bummer they don't nest on moutain bike or hiking trails.

 

For myself, I'm happy for the birds recovery. I strongly dislike the blatant agency hypocrisy I pointed out up there, but I can understand it. This kind of a compromise which the agency makes, or the trail one Kevin makes, is very smart to achieve what is really important in the long term. Still, being singled out and shit on is still the reality and much harder for some. I do have the joy of having the birds being recovered. That is the bottom line of importance. For climbing, I can go elsewhere. But then, so could the cars on the Fremont bridge.

It's not like we drew a bad draft number and it's some random association of "why me?" - the sad reality is climbers are the only ones capable of threatening and disturbing Peregrine nests, cars on bridges and people in highrises don't - that we climb is why it's us that is singled out. If we didn't climb, or didn't climb cliffs, it wouldn't be us.

 

What you guys CAN'T SEEM TO GET A GRIP ON is perceived unfairness and hypocrisy are completely irrelevant, as are anecdotal stories and personal opinions of climber / Peregrine interactions. I've already publicly stated my personal opinion that we could climb Blownout and everything east of it without causing the Peregrines to fail. But again, my opinion carries as much weight in law as your righteous indignation - none whatsoever. Outside of monitoring for the Peregrines nesting elsewhere or the chicks fledging on such or such a day the only thing that will change the closure is some sort of evidence or argument that a lawyer like Maggie, Bryan, Geoff, or Darryl would go to bat with.

 

No amount of hurt feelings, indignation, unfairness, hypocrisy, stories, or personal opinion (including mine) is going to change the closure. Give me ANYTHING viable which could be used as a basis for proposing a change to the closure and I would be running with it in a heartbeat. And if you have that then you should really be giving it to the AF, lawyers, and agency personnel. In the end, I don't have the time or energy to waste on your hurt feelings around the closure or mine (and I think it sucks as much as any of you), I only care about what will get me more climbing days per year out at Beacon and nothing I've read here or heard so far from you, Jim, Kevin, Andrew, Steve, Kenny or anyone else will deliver that. And so you guys think I'm an asshole and idiot with a weak grip on the 'real facts' - hey totally cool, works for me. Friday night at the pow-wow you'll have at least a couple of lawyers present, how about you all sit down, put your heads together, and show me how the smart guys get it done so I can start getting more climbing in.

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So I dont really check the site too often, but I just noticed this. I have no interest in getting involved in the Beacon Rock arguments so back to the original postings. There are two birds the climbers in the northwest really need to think about. The peregrine is the most common, and there is a ton of known research and studies about them. If the bird scientists say 500ft then there is probably a good reason for it. I personally find it enjoyable to see peregrines at climbing areas and the closures are not that big of a deal. If you are super pissed off that one climbing area is closed due to birds you need to branch out a little more and think about climbing some routes you have never climbed before.

 

Golden Eagles are another bird that cliffs are getting closed for. I have done some work with these birds so I know a little more about them.

Goldens need a much bigger closure area than peregrines. So its possible the Zion closures are for them. If a golden eagle sees you heading to toward a nest the adult will often leave the nest before you ever see them. They will not return until you are done climbing so it is entirely possible a climber could cause a golden eagle nest to fail without ever seeing the bird. One trip to a cliff with a golden eagle nest could be the end of the chicks. There is a nest at China Bend here in Washington that has failed for the last 7 years due to climbers. There is also a very healthy population of goldens at Tieton, and a couple at smith. I have been working directly with the raptor biologist for WA fish and wildlife so if anyone has any specific questions let me know.

Just to clarify everyone elses answers, yes almost all birds are protected under the migratory species act.

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It's not like we drew a bad draft number and it's some random association of "why me?" - the sad reality is climbers are the only ones capable of threatening and disturbing Peregrine nests, cars and people in highrises don't - that we climb is why it's us that is singled out. If we didn't climb, or didn't climb cliffs, it wouldn't be us.

 

Thanks Joseph. This statement is exactly correct. I work with the folks in the birding community, and they know this, and like it or not the climbers are the ones they blame for failed nests. Thats why we need to be extra careful about being good citizens when we are in area with closures.

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i know this is off subject, but i wonder what would happen to the job status of beacon rock if the trail were to closed for half the season???

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It's not like we drew a bad draft number and it's some random association of "why me?" - the sad reality is climbers are the only ones capable of threatening and disturbing Peregrine nests, cars and people in highrises

 

You are so off base with this statement I would think you are on crack. Did you not read what I wrote early. Snickers bar and a pepsi can in the nest. These things were put there buy HIKERS throwing them off the trail. You know....right at the sign that says "dont throw, climbers below".

 

You are for the birds at all costs. You are not for the climbers. That is very clear to me. You once even offered to cut back a ledge of grass so the birds could nest there one year. Are you kidding me? Jesus.....let them fail so they will go away. You keep doing what ever it takes to help the birds. STOP IT!!!! I love the birds. But I dont love them nesting on Beacon Rock. They could just as easily nest on Mt. Hamilton.

 

 

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Again, pretty loose with the facts all the way around, Kevin.

 

There is no direct shot into the scrape from above, it's completely protected from heavy thrown debris and tourists throwing light stuff off the trail which can blow into the scrape clearly isn't that significant a threat to birds' breeding success. They've been successful there in years when Big Ledge was covered in glass from broken bottles when checked the day before opening.

 

Every spring the resident Peregrine pair at Beacon compete with outside individuals and pairs to hold onto to their eryie at Beacon. So, regardless of what we do, if Hamilton were a place they wanted to nest they would be competing for it every spring but they don't. And Big Ledge is always their first choice of nest site at Beacon even if they aren't always successful there. But even when they're not, so far they've still been at Beacon somewhere even if we couldn't locate the new nest. Bottom line is they would have to be actively driven off of Beacon to get them to stop breeding there.

 

We get early opens as part of a two-way street of cooperation. Documenting and cleaning out the scrape if necessary at the end of the season is part of that. And that cooperation does and has bought us approximately several months of extra climbing over the past six years. You don't climb there anymore except the odd day once in a blue moon so it's no big deal to you, but every day we open early is to me, so no I won't be stopping it

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good thing neither of us are politicians kev :)

If Kevin were a politician he'd be campaigning with a sign that says "I'm mad as hell and not going to take it any more!" and waving it while standing in the center lane atop the Fremont bridge.

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climbers are the only ones capable of threatening and disturbing Peregrine nests,

 

What about this guy? He does not look like a climber. :wave:

 

fogstock-hunter-shooting-his-gun.jpg

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If Kevin were a politician he'd be campaigning with a sign that says "I'm mad as hell and not going to take it any more do a damn thing about it!"

LOL! Fixed that for you. I think I use to see that guy up at the VA hospital, naked but for wearing a sandwich board with handwritten felt tip exclamations on it.

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So you've taken up a new sport while raising the kids?

 

WHAT DOES MAGGIE SAY ABOUT THE CLOSURE?

Edited by JosephH

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If Kevin were a politician he'd be campaigning with a sign that says "I'm mad as hell and not going to take it any more do a damn thing about it!"

LOL! Fixed that for you. I think I use to see that guy up at the VA hospital, naked but for wearing a sandwich board with handwritten felt tip exclamations on it.

Hey, that's my day job and I think I'm on the verge of getting things turned around up there.

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Yeah? I don't think it was you. This guy was wild eyed looking. Naked except for heavy boots and this sandwich board which said: "MY WIFE EX-WIFE IS A LYING BITCH". and some other things about the government and such. Your wife is a lovely person that's why he might have been the weekend shift.....If they are hiring, I can make up a sandwich board in no time. I'd be interested in the second shift. I'd probably go with the Government rant and the Peregrine rant I suppose.

 

No, belay that Peregrine thing: "Obama is a Muslim": that one! YESSSSS! I'd leave the Peregrine rant for the bone.

 

Oh here's the money! "Obama is a Kenyan Muslim" I'm off to buy some boots.

 

:wave:

Edited by billcoe

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Quick question for you guys.. I would bet that you have each other's email address, why not just email each other directly instead of posting to CC.com? Not even kidding here, you guys all know each other, seems like a phone or email would make more sense vs posting what on a public forum. Sort of like if I invited my Mom to this forum so that her and I could argue about what were doing for Christmas dinner. (There's got to be a good Mom joke somewhere in here, chime in if you got one)

 

Ah better idea just hit me, why don't you guys just IM each other or use one of the many video conferencing services available to talk about Beacon rock? Having two way conversation is tough on a internet forum....

 

 

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Quick question for you guys.. I would bet that you have each other's email address, why not just email each other directly instead of posting to CC.com? Not even kidding here, you guys all know each other, seems like a phone or email would make more sense vs posting what on a public forum. Sort of like if I invited my Mom to this forum so that her and I could argue about what were doing for Christmas dinner. (There's got to be a good Mom joke somewhere in here, chime in if you got one)

 

Ah better idea just hit me, why don't you guys just IM each other or use one of the many video conferencing services available to talk about Beacon rock? Having two way conversation is tough on a internet forum....

 

 

@ 15 of us tried that 3 years ago Nate, didn't work. But you have a good point. I think that the CC.com brain trust gave us our own forum, hoping they'd keep us in our own little nut house, but the patients get out of the cuckoos nest and wander the halls periodically....

OneFlewFredericksonSefeltTa.jpg

Edited by billcoe

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Quick question for you guys.. I would bet that you have each other's email address, why not just email each other directly instead of posting to CC.com? Not even kidding here, you guys all know each other, seems like a phone or email would make more sense vs posting what on a public forum. Sort of like if I invited my Mom to this forum so that her and I could argue about what were doing for Christmas dinner. (There's got to be a good Mom joke somewhere in here, chime in if you got one)

 

Ah better idea just hit me, why don't you guys just IM each other or use one of the many video conferencing services available to talk about Beacon rock? Having two way conversation is tough on a internet forum....

 

 

why didn't u IM us???

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Ah better idea just hit me, why don't you guys just IM each other or use one of the many video conferencing services available to talk about Beacon rock? Having two way conversation is tough on a internet forum....

 

i made my plea for sanity on pg 1 i think and now am just settling in for mockumentary :)

 

i like to think i've made my peace w/ bird closures everywhere, especially beacon, mucking around in the dank on the n side in winter/spring, pilgriming to the sun-splattered rocks of smith and points south, and counting the days before the coming zombie-apocalypse when we'll climb on the s AND e side of beacon in winter, afraid not of nasty birdies and their sharp claws but instead on falling into the swarms of flesh-obsessed undead

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Quick question for you guys.. I would bet that you have each other's email address, why not just email each other directly instead of posting to CC.com? Not even kidding here, you guys all know each other, seems like a phone or email would make more sense vs posting what on a public forum. Sort of like if I invited my Mom to this forum so that her and I could argue about what were doing for Christmas dinner. (There's got to be a good Mom joke somewhere in here, chime in if you got one)

 

Ah better idea just hit me, why don't you guys just IM each other or use one of the many video conferencing services available to talk about Beacon rock? Having two way conversation is tough on a internet forum....

 

 

This is not spray. And this thread is about falcon closures. Is this not the appropriate forum to discuss falcons? Its not like we are clogging up the interweb.

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climbers are the only ones capable of threatening and disturbing Peregrine nests,

 

What about this guy? He does not look like a climber. :wave:

 

fogstock-hunter-shooting-his-gun.jpg

 

Care to explain yourself JH?

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Care to tell us what Maggie thinks we should do about the closure?

 

 

She does not care.

 

Your turn.

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Well, if my wife was a lawyer she may not care, but I'd still be getting legal advice on the matter, regardless. If your wife doesn't care then how about Bryan, he's an environmental attorney - though of course he plays for the other team.

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