kevbone Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Dave, you're going to give Joseph a stroke, poor guy. I thought that was my job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Dave, you're going to give Joseph a stroke, poor guy. I thought that was my job. Where's PINK when you need him??? Probably CLIMBING EL CAP. OR SOLOING LITTLE WING! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 I think it's BOOTY... Actually, I think in almost every case so far it's just been a matter of inexperience, high anxiety, or incompetent judgment. Stevetimetravlr.....nobody is stopping you from replacing everything with chains. He certainly can, but I'd be removing them as fast as he put them in. Appropriate bolts and pins should stay fixed, inappropriate stuff should go. Do you get to decide what is appropriate and what is not? Well, isn't that the frigging question of the hour, who does decide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 Dave, you're going to give Joseph a stroke, poor guy. Not giving me a stroke, half the anchors would disappear entirely if it were up to me. And if you don't like upper Dastardly without bolts I suspect half the anchors disappearing might give you a stroke or at least a minor seizure or two. I personally have no problem with the captive Fixe chain / ring units other than they're expensive; freehanging chains I do have a problem with. I'm also guessing on granite the chains don't wear patterns in the rock the way chain will on basalt in heavy Gorge winds. That, and replacing anchors on El Cap is a different proposition than on Beacon, where it's comparatively no trouble at all. But in this case, just like with the closure, my own personal opinion about it is entirely irrelevant, the WSP SW Resource Steward made the call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 I personally have no problem with the captive Fixe chain / ring units other than they're expensive; freehanging chains I do have a problem with. What's your reasoning here, Joseph? I used to install a lot of those Fixe chain / ring units but they shipped a whole batch of "stainless" powdercoated units that were not stainless and rusted within a year and many of their welds were looking pretty sloppy so we gave up on them. Chains are more convenient at the belay and you don't have to drill the holes within a quarter inch of the right distance from each other for them to lie correctly. If you buy good chain and larger lock links they cost just as much as the Fixe stations, but if they receive heavy use for toproping it is a simple matter to swap out just the bottom lock links. At Index we used to see dozens of tat anchors all over the cliff when looking at the wall from the train tracks. Now that it has all been replaced with chain we see nothing. For this reason, I and some others have worked to replace all the sling anchors at Three O'Clock Rock in Darrington and it looks a lot better. The few stations left with tat on them are glaring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCamKenny Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 half the anchors would disappear entirely if it were up to me. for some reason i find this hard to believe, but if it is the truth why don't we start with that recockulous anchor on the first pitch of warriors? that one really needs to go... feeling better these days, joe? i still got those radios and batteries for you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanb Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Those metolius rap anchors seem sweet but do they really not come in stainless? Painted 1018 seems like a recipe for hidden corrosion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Well, isn't that the frigging question of the hour, who does decide? Me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 I was behind the team of 2 on Young Warrior on Sunday that did the cutting: one was from Tacoma and one from Vancouver, WA. I saw the tat hanging on his harness at the top of 1 and encouraged him to leave any rap tat he finds on other anchors at Beacon. His argument was tat from '07 (it is marked 07) is suspect and by removing it he was doing future newbies a favor by preventing them from top roping off the webbing. Is his argument valid? Sure. I personally have never understood why people leave tat on hangers that are specifically designed so that one doesnt have to leave tat but I'm sure you guys can argue for another 2 pages about why it makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitchaserCJB Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 You guys make me happy that Index is my home crag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 You guys make me happy that Index is my home crag. You should switch crags... you personality would fit right in with the other beacon regulars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitchaserCJB Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 pretty long commute though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 You guys make me happy that Index is my home crag. You should switch crags... you personality would fit right in with the other beacon regulars You mean BEATARDS, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 His argument was tat from '07 (it is marked 07) is suspect and by removing it he was doing future newbies a favor by preventing them from top roping off the webbing. Is his argument valid? Sure. No, his argument was not valid, he was mistaken and his judgment was entirely off - the slings on that anchor were entirely fine and bomb - particularly compared with the garbage he left. If you did a pull test of what was there and what he left, I'd guess what he left would pull at half the load of what was there. Far older 1" webbing in any number of pull tests comes in at around 14-19kn and the slings he cut off were fully redundant and doubled and would likely pull in the 25-30kn range (the bolts would probably go first). They were just under three years old and by the standard of faded, old webbing that gets tested it wouldn't even qualify as 'old' in any event. [ Edit: just made arrangements to pull test the anchor that's at the top of 'Flying Swallow' which has been out exposed more than just about any other anchor out there and is coming up on five years old. I'll take it off and replace it entirely so as to leave it intact with rap hangers and rings for the testing. I anticipate the anchor will be mounted for testing as it was up on the route. Won't happen for a bit, but I'll post up on this thread when the results are in. I'm betting it goes at over 25k or that the load tester maxs out, but we'll have to wait and see. ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 His argument was tat from '07 (it is marked 07) is suspect and by removing it he was doing future newbies a favor by preventing them from top roping off the webbing. I hope you slapped him for being such a morron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
num1mc Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 You guys are smoking crack if you expect everyone to accept three year old webbing slings as being bombproof. It just won't happen, people will see old slings, and think they are tat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pink Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 'ere we go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 If anyone thinks a three year old, doubled and redundant, hardly-faded-at-all, sling anchor is anything but bomb, they need to go back to sport climbing and skip trad and alpine climbing altogether (and possibly climbing outdoors at all). That and be sure and collect your weenie and paranoia merit badges (especially for going by the date versus the condition of the anchor) - either way you're a regular Boy Scout and probably not ready for the nasty realities of trad climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Beatard Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 You guys make me happy that Index is my home crag. You should switch crags... you personality would fit right in with the other beacon regulars You mean BEATARDS, right? That's correct Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
num1mc Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 Now that Joe and I have established via PM that I may know a thing or two about trad; I'm saying that whenever fixed anchors or the components which make up fixed anchors are used where reasonable people, rightly or wrongly, could assume that environmental conditions have weakened the system, then you should not be surprised when the anchors are altered. Webbing is affected by UV and other conditions. I am sure that you are correct that they remain bomber. But people still have a right to back them up, alter or remove them if they doubt the integrity of the system. And using three year old slings is not a good start to ensure the strength of the anchor, regardless of any fiats which you may issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
num1mc Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 One more item: May Tom Rorher descend upon the CRG like a camel in heat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 One more item: May Tom Rorher descend upon the CRG like a camel in heat I'm not sure I like the visual I get when I read this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 Speaking of anchors, I did notice the slings on the top of Windsurfer were starting to get a little frazzled/worn on the outside edges, just where the slings meet/rub on the hangers. Not an integrity issue, for me, but I would not be at all surprised to see them gone if the same guy that cut the tat on YW happens to go over there. Just a heads up, if they happen to not be there next time you are on the route/rap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 29, 2010 Author Share Posted July 29, 2010 And using three year old slings is not a good start to ensure the strength of the anchor, regardless of any fiats which you may issue. First off, the webbing wasn't three years old when installed, it was brand new off the spool - it was three years old, barely, when said gumby cut it off. And the anchor slings in question looked and were entirely fine and the person who did the butchering was going solely by the date, and even there had no idea what he was doing. Bottomline the guy was clueless regardless of how long he's been climbing and incompetent to be replacing anchors for other people (especially in light of his replacement). We get one through about every other year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted July 29, 2010 Author Share Posted July 29, 2010 Speaking of anchors, I did notice the slings on the top of Windsurfer were starting to get a little frazzled/worn on the outside edges, just where the slings meet/rub on the hangers. Not an integrity issue, for me, but I would not be at all surprised to see them gone if the same guy that cut the tat on YW happens to go over there. Just a heads up, if they happen to not be there next time you are on the route/rap. Said slings are fine on Windsurfer as well, but I have no doubt our knife-wielding date accountant will have at them all. Again, clueless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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