JosephH Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 Sure. If the only thing a person is hearing is bitching then they are probably not going to hear anything else someone may be trying to say; like how things might be done better in the future, or something that might be constructive. I think we have two separate issues we are talking about - dealing with the closure and the replacement work I've done. In terms of the closure, you would all be way, way better served if you guys would deal factually with the events, people, law, and policy around it rather than a litany of mis-remembrances, myth, half-truths, urban legend, and misunderstandings of the law, policy, and administration of it. Your comments about the BRSP not setting up annual reviews is, for instance, a good example of misunderstanding the administration of the closure policy - the BRSP has no involvement whatsoever in annual closure reviews, it's solely the province of the WDFW. From my perspective it's pretty hard to offer up suggestions on "how things might be done better in the future, or something that might be constructive" when you are in denial about the circumstances and facts associated with the problem. And that's not even touching on the indoctrination of new young climbers into a veritable cult of misinformation around the closure and an oh-so-hip-and-cool "fuck the man" culture that paints all the agency personnel responsible for administering and enforcing the park and closure as sinister liars bent on fucking climbers. Bottom line for me on the closure is I haven't heard a single viable suggestion on dealing with it from one of you guys that started with, and was based on, facts and reality versus "what we want" and "how unfair it all is". And guess what? I want exactly the same thing you all want and I fully empathize with the fact it 'feels' unfair. And you want to hear a real shocker? No I mean it, a real shocker? Well, I've never stated my personal belief on the matter, but here goes and I'll even quote it for you: My personal opinion on the closure is that we could likely climb Blownout and everything east of it without causing reproductive failure of a Peregrine pair nesting on Big Ledge. Read that baby again as it's the first time it's ever been stated privately or publicly. And what of it? Well, it's just one man's opinion and holds exactly zero weight under the WA state law and policy governing the closure. Nothing about me holding that opinion means diddlysquat in the real world and I can say it as many times as I like and it won't change a damn thing. Sad but true, opinions - even those as informed, lofty, smug, smart, cocksure, righteous, pompous, self-serving, certain, adamant and just plain arrogant as mine - have no effect whatsoever on WA state laws and will never inform WDFW policy on the matter. I know, I know - hard to fucking imagine, isn't it? Unfortunately, nothing about my personal opinion is actionable under the law and neither is anyone's feelings of how unfair it all is. As far as the rebolting issue goes, I've explained my reasoning and specific answers to your questions on the anchors above - you and others are free to agree or disagree with it as you please. As far as the YW bolts go, again selfish reasons related to the Index bolts popping and not wanting to do my full moon climbs on bad bolts ruled that decision. That all the bolts were bad except two which were on their way out is an undeniable fact, the only question for me then was how was one to respond to claims that bad bolts aren't bad and that even if they are they can't be replaced without ruining the route. How do you suggest one should respond to that? How do you have a "dialogue" around that kind of unmovable "diatribe". I do not want any routes or bolts to be chopped, erased, or otherwise: no one learns anything from something like that. Neither do I. I wanted to try and open things up to a dialogue, not a diatribe; my apologies to Joe. If we as individuals cannot admit to our own mistakes, or the possibility that we made one, then we won't see how we can do anything better in the future. No apologies necessary. And I've been open to dialog at every stage of things over the last few years, but what I've found is no one has been interested in a dialog of any kind which is based on facts and reality. As far as admitting mistakes go I've backed out of a couple of actions such as the rap setup on the Corner Tree, the anchor on the perch below the Dods tree, and the bolt on the approach to Reasonable Richard. My bad, though none were done for me personally, but rather either for reasons related to keeping heat from the authorities off of climbers in the event of an incident (RR bolt and Corner Tree rap) and / or because Opdycke either agreed with my reasoning (RR bolt) or suggested it (Dods perch anchor). All three met with climber disapproval and I removed them. If Joe doesn't see his re-bolting, replacing, or whatever the hell you want to call it as an indiscriminate act, so be it... Little if nothing I do or have done related to climbing is in any way "indiscriminate" - I explained my reasons above - that you may disagree with that reasoning in no way makes anything about my actions indiscriminate or random. Also, in the case of the anchors, in 54 of 68 anchors both bolts were bad and / or spinners so I have no regrets around doing that replacement as I hate suck anchors. If stupid bolts or traffic or cold coffee ruin your day then look at yourself for an answer. I did exactly that and took action accordingly. We are all entitled to our own f'in opinions and belief systems. In the end who gives a fig? There are much bigger issues in the world today than stupid climbing. I'm not going to argue that point with you. I'm just pissed my ankle is injured and I can't climb--boo-whoo, poor pitiful me. Bummer, sorry to hear that and hope it heals up quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
area51 Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 JH is also a very fast typer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 reasons related to the Index bolts popping and not wanting to do my full moon climbs on bad bolts ruled that decision. You've mentioned the Index bolt failures about 3 times now. Are you referring to these bolt hanger failures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 Bill, I don't recall the exact details, other than sometime fairly recently a couple of old bolts popped on some route during a fall. That caught my attention. I do recall you've posted those pics before so, yeah, those could be the ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Larry Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 would like to add a comment about tradition: a lot of traditions actually suck the big one--to blindly do things because they have always been done a certain way may also be the definition of insanity: doing same thing, expecting different results. Joe: believe it or not we do share a lot in common. Thanks 4 sharing on a lot of stuff I was clueless about. Best wishes, Old clueless Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevetimetravlr Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 Isn't that a photo of the hangers off of Calling Wolfgang at Index? A couple years before that incident my friend Mark was climbing Danas Arch and he broke a hanger under body weight,must have been the same batch of hangers, some weird stainless plating? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 Yeah, I believe so TTS. I could certainly see these catching anyone's attention JH. These were Aluminum and the metals were mixed, causing galvanic corrosion. As far as I know, Beacon had no aluminum hangers. You would have noticed it in the conversion to new stainless when you pulled the old stuff off. If they ever were any there, I suspect they are long gone with your new stuff. So not something thing to worry over I believe. Kong has not made aluminum hangers for years as far as I know. Broken Index Hanger link http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/902836/Searchpage/1/Main/69383/Words/index+hangers/Search/true/Re_TR_Index_Broken_Bolt_Hanger#Post902836 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 Thanks for the link. There were and are some of the aluminum 'poptop' hangers around from the old days. Pretty scary even when new. Glad we don't have any of those in the pictures. As I said, didn't really recall the details so much as some old stuff actually popping on someone. Looks pretty nasty, glad they didn't get hurt worse. Sounds like someone had a similarly lucky day at Beacon today according to Steve on the other thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 i'm drunk n' 5 dayz behindt this thread but pretty sure i haven't missed anythign Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCamKenny Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 i'm drunk n' 5 dayz behindt this thread but pretty sure i haven't missed anythign nothing important, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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