beacon bolting question?

[JosephH]

Oh, while we're at it, not three weeks ago Jim explicitly stated that the anchor for rapping into LoLP was "perfect" and "shouldn't be fucked with", and not a week or so later one of you pudknockers slapped a third fatty in there, unrigged the ring pin, and re-webbed the whole affair. So which one of you guys did the deed against Jim's explicit wishes and where are the howls of righteous indignation and moral outrage over it?

 

[ P.S. Maybe next time just replace the two suck bolts rather than slam a fatty in third; and you might also want go back up there and melt the ends of those slings... ]

[kevbone]

JH. In one statement you say you are against adding bolts to make a route safer, yet you turn around and replace bolts to make a route safer. Which is it man?

[JosephH]

JH. In one statement you say you are against adding bolts to make a route safer, yet you turn around and replace bolts to make a route safer. Which is it man?

Ok then, this amazingly makes it four people who don't know the difference between rebolting and retrobolting. Would anyone else like to make it five? Because maybe there would be some comfort and consolation in numbers.

 

Main Entry: re·bolt

Pronunciation: \ri-'bolt\

Function: verb

20th century

intransitive verb

1 : to replace existing bolts on an existing climb on a 1:1 basis without substantially altering their location or the experience of climbing the route

Main Entry: retro.bolt

Pronunciation: \re-'tro-'bolt\

Function: verb

Date: 20th century

intransitive verb

1 : to add, remove, and / or move bolts on an existing climb thereby altering the climb and substantially changing the experience of climbing the route

So far Kenny and Steve have testified they can't tell any difference in the experience of climbing the route. Anyone out there who has climbed it this year and feels it climbs differently in any substantial way due to being rebolted?

[kevbone]

I know the difference Joseph. And thank you for replacing them.

[denalidave]

isn't this where bill chimes in and points out how great of a guy joseph is an how we should all thank him for all his hard work....

 

Since Bill won't I will! I thank Joseph each time I clip into those Metolius rap anchors. And I thank him each time he helps me out on my software.

 

Paul Cou sar

Ditto.

 

[pink]

isn't this where bill chimes in and points out how great of a guy joseph is an how we should all thank him for all his hard work....

 

Since Bill won't I will! I thank Joseph each time I clip into those Metolius rap anchors. And I thank him each time he helps me out on my software.

 

Paul Cou sar

Ditto.

 

i think that the bolt replacement is "whatever" who doesn't love shiny new bolts, if it wasn't him it would be somebody else. JH always say's it's for purely selfish reasons. i truly believe that JH would like to leave a bit of a legacy behind somewhere and i think JH has chosen beacon as that place. which i don't understand, JH is a total icon on the east coast and in the southern IL climbing scene. the guy has quite the resume.

[JosephH]

Well, you're definitely right about the selfish part. I rope-solo YW on summer full moon nights without a headlamp which makes p1 / p2 a bit spicier then normal and ups the possibility I might actually dive on one of those bolts. After the Index bolts came off I started looking at the YW bolts and the more I looked the less I liked what I saw given what I'd seen of the bolts in all the anchors I replaced.

 

And legacy? Ha, that's a good one! The only 'legacy' I'm interested in when I'm old is being able to remember my name, not piss on myself, and show up in public with my pants on.

 

No, the whole point of the anchor replacement project was to establish some demonstrable investment of concern, cooperation, time, money, and effort by locals so when the WSP gets around to re-forming the Climber's Advisory Committee (CAC), locals will have something tangible and documented to point to in order to claim we are the responsible, knowledgeable, and cooperating party when it comes to managing climbing at Beacon. That came about in direct response to the AF repeatedly stating they, on the other hand, would be seeking a CAC membership that was a 'proportional representation' of the broader WA / OR climbing community and not be made up of just Beacon locals, i.e. a CAC with at most one Beacon local on it.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I personally found and find that prospect totally unacceptable and so I set about attempting to establish some form of tangible 'legacy' that locals and the BRSP could point to and be able to claim that locals are the responsible stewards of climbing at Beacon. At the time I started that the only public legacy locals had was a long history of breaking the closure, shit-talking the agencies and people involved with managing Beacon, partying, and endless complaining. Not exactly what you want to point to when it comes time to explain why locals deserve majority representation on any reconstituted CAC.

[stevetimetravlr]

So as I started up Crusing yesterday, there was a very large bird wing at the base, and then another one higher up. As I climbed the little crack, I pulled out pieces of feather with blood on them. Looks like something ate a very large bird, the wings look like a raptor? The wings were big enough that they had to be some sort of raptor i would think. Do peregrines eat hawks? The bits and pieces are below Crusing below the trail. Either that or a eagle ate a peregrine!

[JosephH]

Ah, that's exactly what I thought the first time I saw that. That's actually a gull wingset and all that's left of a gull when a Peregrine gets done with one. The Peregrines tend to eat smaller birds until the chicks hatch and then they really start going after the gulls in order to feed themselves and the young ones. The gulls go up the Gorge to feed on young Salmon and other small fish killed coming down through the dams and also head out and back to the dump in Arlington. To the Peregrines the gulls are like a self-serve Sushi train going up and down the Gorge just when they need one.

 

 

The Peregrines will definitely get after other Raptors, tough. I've seen them take on the Ospreys out there fairly regularly and David related the story of a Peregrine killing an Eagle up at Lake Chelan. The Redtail hawks seem to know not to be a nuisance to them. And the Great Horned Owl is the main predator of Peregrines so the Peregrines will definitely get after them. A couple of years ago one of park's Great Horned Owls turned up with a broken wing and David suspects it was one of the Peregrines that did the deed.

 

By and large the various Raptors coexist and get along in close quarters because they all tend to eat different things: the Peregrines hunt other birds in the air; the Hawks eat small mammals and reptiles on the ground; Osprey eat fish from the river; Eagles are omnivores and will eat about anything; Vultures eat dead stuff; and the Owls eat what the Hawks eat, but hunt at night. There's some occasional overlap, but mostly they don't compete heavily for food and so 'get along' (sort of).

[Lucky Larry]

Oh, while we're at it, not three weeks ago Jim explicitly stated that the anchor for rapping into LoLP was "perfect" and "shouldn't be fucked with", and not a week or so later one of you pudknockers slapped a third fatty in there, unrigged the ring pin, and re-webbed the whole affair. So which one of you guys did the deed against Jim's explicit wishes and where are the howls of righteous indignation and moral outrage over it?

 

[ P.S. Maybe next time just replace the two suck bolts rather than slam a fatty in third; and you might also want go back up there and melt the ends of those slings... ]

my only objection to the 3rd bolt is that it was placed so close to a crack; how safe is that?

[Lucky Larry]

Well, you're definitely right about the selfish part. I rope-solo YW on summer full moon nights without a headlamp which makes p1 / p2 a bit spicier then normal and ups the possibility I might actually dive on one of those bolts. After the Index bolts came off I started looking at the YW bolts and the more I looked the less I liked what I saw given what I'd seen of the bolts in all the anchors I replaced.

 

And legacy? Ha, that's a good one! The only 'legacy' I'm interested in when I'm old is being able to remember my name, not piss on myself, and show up in public with my pants on.

 

No, the whole point of the anchor replacement project was to establish some demonstrable investment of concern, cooperation, time, money, and effort by locals so when the WSP gets around to re-forming the Climber's Advisory Committee (CAC), locals will have something tangible and documented to point in order to claim we are the responsible, knowledgeable, and cooperating party when it comes to managing climbing at Beacon. That came about in direct response to the AF repeatedly stating they, on the other hand, would be seeking a CAC membership that was a 'proportional representation' of the broader WA / OR climbing community and not be made up of just Beacon locals, i.e. a CAC with at most one Beacon local on it.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I personally found and find that prospect totally unacceptable and so I set about attempting to establish some form of tangible 'legacy' that locals and the BRSP could point to and be able to claim that locals are the responsible stewards of climbing at Beacon. At the time I started that the only public legacy locals had was a long history of breaking the closure, shit-talking the agencies and people involved with managing Beacon, partying, and endless complaining. Not exactly what you want to point to when it comes time to explain why locals deserve majority representation on any reconstituted CAC.

alright already, thanks 4 all ur bolts and work Joe. I have never placed a bolt and I am just curious why u did not use the safer swiss system of bolt placements, vertically, instead of the more questionable horizontal, side by side, placements? RE: YW 1st pitch bolt placements; if they worry u u can actually use nuts and a cam right next to three of the dam things. RE: the route climbers L of Flying Dutchman-why three bolt stations in 180 ft Joe? If your answer is because they were historical that's hysterical-totally unnecessary bro. If we lead by example then what is it we are teaching? While I'm at it why the bolts at the start of the 3rd pitch of YW? Perfect bomber crack there right in your face with an even more bomber upward directional at your feet. Historically there was never a bolt rap station at the base of the slab on SE corner. Just saying a lot of stuff should have been left alone because 1. it was historical 2. routes should not be changed from the way they were first put up unless your talking about the over bolting on YW or any other over bolted routes 3. a lot of routes were never put up to be rapped off; ground up, commitment and all that 4. how about personal responsibility when climbing and using your own head to figure when something is safe, or not safe, instead of making everything safe-because it isn't-and it sounds like the sport route mentality; which isn't fool proof either: everyone has seen them. I am not saying this to piss you or anyone else off. Tradition does have value and in a lot of cases is better than most of the beliefs we have been consumed by, and are consuming the planet. As far as legacy you were not around when the climbers were going to all the meetings in Vancouver and Olympia and such; so you have that part wrong Joe. The BRSP let the climbers down Joe; they never set up the yearly review meetings that they themselves agreed too, and the climbers never got on their ass about it because they wanted to just get along. I have made a lot of mistakes Joe, it's just that i admit that I have. One person on a quest, for right or wrong, does not make a locals tangible effort- it's takes communication and more than one member to build a locals effort. I am not against re-bolting, just revolting. Best wishes, Old Larry

[JosephH]

I am just curious why u did not use the safer swiss system of bolt placements, vertically, instead of the more questionable horizontal, side by side, placements?

I was just rebolting what was there; there are tons of things I'd do differently if I felt it was up to me.

 

RE: YW 1st pitch bolt placements; if they worry u u can actually use nuts and a cam right next to three of the dam things.

I lead that pitch entirely on gear all the time in the daylight, but most folks aren't going to clip those bolts and then place gear backups, so I don't know what the point would be of leaving bad bolts on one of Beacon's most heavily trafficked routes.

 

RE: the route climbers L of Flying Dutchman-why three bolt stations in 180 ft Joe? If your answer is because they were historical that's hysterical-totally unnecessary bro. If we lead by example then what is it we are teaching?

I didn't feel it was up to me to decide whether existing anchors should exist or not, I just replaced them. The only anchor I moved significantly was the top Flying Dutchman anchor which got moved around the corner and out on the face.

 

While I'm at it why the bolts at the start of the 3rd pitch of YW? Perfect bomber crack there right in your face with an even more bomber upward directional at your feet. Historically there was never a bolt rap station at the base of the slab on SE corner.

I entirely agree with you on the YW anchor at the base of p3; if it were up to me it would just be gone as would a whole bunch of other anchors. But, again I wasn't trying to change routes, just replace what was there. There are lot of anchors which could still be removed at any time as far as I'm concerned and if that's what folks decided they collectively wanted to have happen it would be ok by me.

 

Just saying a lot of stuff should have been left alone because: 1. it was historical 2. routes should not be changed from the way they were first put up unless your talking about the over bolting on YW or any other over bolted routes 3. a lot of routes were never put up to be rapped off; ground up, commitment and all that 4. how about personal responsibility when climbing and using your own head to figure when something is safe, or not safe, instead of making everything safe-because it isn't-and it sounds like the sport route mentality; which isn't fool proof either: everyone has seen them.

1. Anything with some 'historical' merit I left, but most of it was just mank, like lots of rusty, plated SMC hangers.

 

2. I specifically avoided retrobolting anything, that wouldn't be my call to do.

 

3. I agree with the just-top-out sentiment.

 

4. Well, I'm all for and about climbers taking personal responsibility for every aspect of their climbing - climbing is incredibly dangerous if you don't, trad climbing especially so. But in these days of learning in gyms and crossing over to trad from sport, those folks don't have the knowledge, experience, or judgment necessary to figure out if a bolt is bad or not when they come out. My personal opinion is that if fixed pro is present and isn't some form of obviously marginal placement, then folks ought to be able to count on it being solid. That said, YW is the only route I have replaced protection bolts on and there only for selfish and traffic reasons.

 

In the case of anchors, the stats speak for themselves, most had bad bolts, lots had bad hangers. The worst being the tire chain anchor on Bluebird at the short two pin crux. The left bolt came off under just the weight of the breaker bar on it when I momentarily took my hands off it to adjust my leash. The other bolt came off with a quarter turn. The first pin above the anchor all but came out with my fingers. If someone had blown that move and tumbled off the column top the odds are stellar the anchor would have failed unless the belayer were very well-stanced.

 

I am not saying this to piss you or anyone else off. Tradition does have value and in a lot of cases is better than most of the beliefs we have been consumed by, and are consuming the planet.

I'm not going to argue the point, that's why I didn't retrobolt, I'm ok with the way things are out there despite the fact that, like Steve, there are no shortage of things I would change if I were doing what I thought should happen. But that wasn't and isn't what I've been up to.

 

As far as legacy you were not around when the climbers were going to all the meetings in Vancouver and Olympia and such; so you have that part wrong Joe. The BRSP let the climbers down Joe; they never set up the yearly review meetings that they themselves agreed too, and the climbers never got on their ass about it because they wanted to just get along.

I've read all the documentation, fact-checked with climbers and agency personnel who were at those meetings and do understand what went down. In the end climbers turned down a partial closure because it didn't include topping out and did so on the basis that tourist top out and so should climbers - reasonable logic, but a bad decision from my perspective.

 

As for the annual reviews, the BRSP has no part whatsoever in administering the Peregrine closure; their only role is enforcement within the park boundaries. If folks wanted or want an annual Peregrine closure review you'd have to address that concern to the WDFW. Cool with me. The monitoring data for the season could be discussed along with what that data implied in the way of an opening date; but beyond that, nothing in those review meetings would ever change the WA state law or WFDF policy governing the closures. To do that you have to come to those review meetings armed with some form of credible scientific, legal, or policy basis for doing so. That's because our closure is consistent with all the other closures around the nation and the AF supports those closures 100%.

 

I have made a lot of mistakes Joe, it's just that i admit that I have. One person on a quest, for right or wrong, does not make a locals tangible effort- it's takes communication and more than one member to build a locals effort. I am not against re-bolting, just revolting. Best wishes, Old Larry

I agree, and when I heard what AF had in mind for the CAC membership committee I laid out those fears and the potential for establishing a credible position Beacon locals could use to stake a claim at that table. Guess what? In the end no one was interested and the same old bullshit - that no one should be "talking to the man" - has reigned. That 'tradition' has held sway for 14 years of whining and bitching with NOTHING being done about what you have been bitching about. Is that the plan for the next 14 years as well?

 

Sorry, I just can't deal with it when people whine about shit and then do nothing about it, let alone join the Church of Our Eternal Persecution. That explanation above of my reasoning is about the tenth time I've posted it over the years. But I agree with you it's pointless for one person to try and do it when no one else is interested. That's why I quit that aspect of it all, clearly explained to all the agency personnel I represent no one but myself at this point, and have reverted to my selfish, ruffian ways.

[Lucky Larry]

Well, if all you hear is bitching, and not opinions...I rest my case.

[LUCKY]

I am just curious why u did not use the safer swiss system of bolt placements, vertically, instead of the more questionable horizontal, side by side, placements?

I was just rebolting what was there; there are tons of things I'd do differently if I felt it was up to me.

 

RE: YW 1st pitch bolt placements; if they worry u u can actually use nuts and a cam right next to three of the dam things.

I lead that pitch entirely on gear all the time in the daylight, but most folks aren't going to clip those bolts and then place gear backups, so I don't know what the point would be of leaving bad bolts on one of Beacon's most heavily trafficked routes.

 

RE: the route climbers L of Flying Dutchman-why three bolt stations in 180 ft Joe? If your answer is because they were historical that's hysterical-totally unnecessary bro. If we lead by example then what is it we are teaching?

I didn't feel it was up to me to decide whether existing anchors should exist or not, I just replaced them. The only anchor I moved significantly was the top Flying Dutchman anchor which got moved around the corner and out on the face.

 

While I'm at it why the bolts at the start of the 3rd pitch of YW? Perfect bomber crack there right in your face with an even more bomber upward directional at your feet. Historically there was never a bolt rap station at the base of the slab on SE corner.

I entirely agree with you on the YW anchor at the base of p3; if it were up to me it would just be gone as would a whole bunch of other anchors. But, again I wasn't trying to change routes, just replace what was there. There are lot of anchors which could still be removed at any time as far as I'm concerned and if that's what folks decided they collectively wanted to have happen it would be ok by me.

 

Just saying a lot of stuff should have been left alone because: 1. it was historical 2. routes should not be changed from the way they were first put up unless your talking about the over bolting on YW or any other over bolted routes 3. a lot of routes were never put up to be rapped off; ground up, commitment and all that 4. how about personal responsibility when climbing and using your own head to figure when something is safe, or not safe, instead of making everything safe-because it isn't-and it sounds like the sport route mentality; which isn't fool proof either: everyone has seen them.

1. Anything with some 'historical' merit I left, but most of it was just mank, like lots of rusty, plated SMC hangers.

 

2. I specifically avoided retrobolting anything, that wouldn't be my call to do.

 

3. I agree with the just-top-out sentiment.

 

4. Well, I'm all for and about climbers taking personal responsibility for every aspect of their climbing - climbing is incredibly dangerous if you don't, trad climbing especially so. But in these days of learning in gyms and crossing over to trad from sport, those folks don't have the knowledge, experience, or judgment necessary to figure out if a bolt is bad or not when they come out. My personal opinion is that if fixed pro is present and isn't some form of obviously marginal placement, then folks ought to be able to count on it being solid. That said, YW is the only route I have replaced protection bolts on and there only for selfish and traffic reasons.

 

In the case of anchors, the stats speak for themselves, most had bad bolts, lots had bad hangers. The worst being the tire chain anchor on Bluebird at the short two pin crux. The left bolt came off under just the weight of the breaker bar on it when I momentarily took my hands off it to adjust my leash. The other bolt came off with a quarter turn. The first pin above the anchor all but came out with my fingers. If someone had blown that move and tumbled off the column top the odds are stellar the anchor would have failed unless the belayer were very well-stanced.

 

I am not saying this to piss you or anyone else off. Tradition does have value and in a lot of cases is better than most of the beliefs we have been consumed by, and are consuming the planet.

I'm not going to argue the point, that's why I didn't retrobolt, I'm ok with the way things are out there despite the fact that, like Steve, there are no shortage of things I would change if I were doing what I thought should happen. But that wasn't and isn't what I've been up to.

 

As far as legacy you were not around when the climbers were going to all the meetings in Vancouver and Olympia and such; so you have that part wrong Joe. The BRSP let the climbers down Joe; they never set up the yearly review meetings that they themselves agreed too, and the climbers never got on their ass about it because they wanted to just get along.

I've read all the documentation, fact-checked with climbers and agency personnel who were at those meetings and do understand what went down. In the end climbers turned down a partial closure because it didn't include topping out and did so on the basis that tourist top out and so should climbers - reasonable logic, but a bad decision from my perspective.

 

As for the annual reviews, the BRSP has no part whatsoever in administering the Peregrine closure; their only role is enforcement within the park boundaries. If folks wanted or want an annual Peregrine closure review you'd have to address that concern to the WDFW. Cool with me. The monitoring data for the season could be discussed along with what that data implied in the way of an opening date; but beyond that, nothing in those review meetings would ever change the WA state law or WFDF policy governing the closures. To do that you have to come to those review meetings armed with some form of credible scientific, legal, or policy basis for doing so. That's because our closure is consistent with all the other closures around the nation and the AF supports those closures 100%.

 

I have made a lot of mistakes Joe, it's just that i admit that I have. One person on a quest, for right or wrong, does not make a locals tangible effort- it's takes communication and more than one member to build a locals effort. I am not against re-bolting, just revolting. Best wishes, Old Larry

I agree, and when I heard what AF had in mind for the CAC membership committee I laid out those fears and the potential for establishing a credible position Beacon locals could use to stake a claim at that table. Guess what? In the end no one was interested and the same old bullshit - that no one should be "talking to the man" - has reigned. That 'tradition' has held sway for 14 years of whining and bitching with NOTHING being done about what you have been bitching about. Is that the plan for the next 14 years as well?

 

Sorry, I just can't deal with it when people whine about shit and then do nothing about it, let alone join the Church of Our Eternal Persecution. That explanation above of my reasoning is about the tenth time I've posted it over the years. But I agree with you it's pointless for one person to try and do it when no one else is interested. That's why I quit that aspect of it all, clearly explained to all the agency personnel I represent no one but myself at this point, and have reverted to my selfish, ruffian ways.

Dang that's one long phuk'n post

[LostCamKenny]

Sorry, all bets were off in the face of that sort of nonsense.

oh, i got it now... if it isn't in line with yer fucked up thinking then it is nonsense. glad we cleared that up

[Mr. Hands]

So as I started up Crusing yesterday, there was a very large bird wing at the base, and then another one higher up. As I climbed the little crack, I pulled out pieces of feather with blood on them. Looks like something ate a very large bird, the wings look like a raptor? The wings were big enough that they had to be some sort of raptor i would think. Do peregrines eat hawks? The bits and pieces are below Crusing below the trail. Either that or a eagle ate a peregrine!

 

Are you sure it was Crusin and not the first pitch of Young Warriors?!?!?!

 

 

 

[denalidave]

PDX BACONFEST 2010

 

"The 2010 Portland Baconfest is a street party celebration of all things bacon presented by PDX.FM. From bacon clothing to bacon booze to bands that remind us of the world’s most delicious meat – and of course, bacon itself in all of it’s many glorious forms – the 2010 Portland Baconfest is a no holds barred bacon extravaganza featuring contests, prizes, and more bacon entertainment than any one bacon lover should handle in a single day.

 

This year, Portland Baconfest will be held on Saturday, August 21st at 1800 East Burnside Street • Portland, Oregon, from 12pm to 8pm. Please note that Portland Baconfest is a 21+ event."

 

[JosephH]

Sorry, all bets were off in the face of that sort of nonsense.

oh, i got it now... if it isn't in line with yer fucked up thinking then it is nonsense. glad we cleared that up

Then you are saying you agree that bad bolts can't be replaced on a climb without screwing it up? Really? Have you thought that one through, Kenny?

 

You are sure welcome to that opinion, but I'm sticking with my "fucked up thinking" on this one because that opinion is never going to get any traction with me (or the rest of the climbing world outside of the Bacon distortion field). If that's the case the ASCA sure is destroying routes cross the country and that poor damn Tyler kid has single-handedly been trashing climb after climb over at Smith and around Oregon; maybe someone should try to persuade him to stop the insanity and help him unfuck his thinking on the matter.

 

Anyone else here think bad bolts can't be replaced without ruining a climb?

[JosephH]

Well, if all you hear is bitching, and not opinions...I rest my case.

Larry, opinions are one thing, 14 years of relentless whining and bitching about the closure is another. At what point do you either do something [productive] about it or, having done something and hit the wall with that, simply accept reality, move on, and get the fuck over it? Instead it's a relentless bitchfest twice a year. The gnashing of teeth and the wailing chorus of injustice at the Church of Eternal Persecution is just deafening year after year. And at some point in all that aren't you just using 'the man' and the closure to define yourselves or at least allowing yourself to be defined by it all? What about simply moving on and just climbing somewhere else when it's closed (especially now that there are local alternatives) - anything but another 14 years at the wailing wall.

[Mr. Hands]

 

 

Hi denalidave: Your constant use of the gecko.gif really spooks my horse every time we browse CC.com together. If you could tame that annoying .gif it would be splendid for us all!

 

Edited August 21, 2010 by Mr. Hands

[JosephH]

That's a pink signature Dave has taken to...

[JosephH]

Dang that's one long phuk'n post

Larry asked a boatload of questions, I answered him as best I could.

[billcoe]

 

Larry could you clarify what you mean by this post?

Well, if all you hear is bitching, and not opinions...I rest my case.

[denalidave]

That's a pink signature Dave has taken to...

Only cause PINK climbed ElCap and SOLOED LIL-WING!

[Lucky Larry]

Larry could you clarify what you mean by this post?

Well, if all you hear is bitching, and not opinions...I rest my case.

Sure. If the only thing a person is hearing is bitching then they are probably not going to hear anything else someone may be trying to say; like how things might be done better in the future, or something that might be constructive. I do not want any routes or bolts to be chopped, erased, or otherwise: no one learns anything from something like that. I wanted to try and open things up to a dialogue, not a diatribe; my apologies to Joe. If we as individuals cannot admit to our own mistakes, or the possibility that we made one, then we won't see how we can do anything better in the future. If Joe doesn't see his re-bolting, replacing, or whatever the hell you want to call it as an indiscriminate act, so be it--what the F do I care; it's not my problem. If stupid bolts or traffic or cold coffee ruin your day then look at yourself for an answer. We are all entitled to our own f'in opinions and belief systems. In the end who gives a fig? There are much bigger issues in the world today than stupid climbing. I'm sure you can come up with your own examples. IMO climbing is just an ego/vanity trip anyway-ooo, I'm so cool pursuing something that risks my life and helps no one. I'm just pissed my ankle is injured and I can't climb--boo-whoo, poor pitiful me. I am just killing time posting stupid shit that doesn't amount to shit. All this is a joke compared to all the real shit that's happening, isn't it? Best wishes, Old pitiful Larry