Terminal_Gravity Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 Clearly the bolt issue is very important to all of us. It gets some of the most colorful responses. I have been accused of making "wise-ass" comments. That may be true, but only with the hopes of sparking constructive thought about a subject with permanent ramifications. I have read over a hundred postings on this site relating to bolts. I think that Caveman had the right idea about a bolt issue page; but its just to big for just one page. Why is that? It is because of the permanence and dramatic change that bolts make for the climbing experience. We talk about safety versus damage to the enviroment. Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah. If you stop to really think about it, thats so much retoric and bull shit that it makes you want to puke. What is safe about a climber that only knows how to pull a quick draw and clip; he probably hasn't taken the time to properly learn rope handling, can't inspect the integrity of the bolt, and if it was bad what could he possibly do? And damage to the environment? Please; you know as well as I do that every time you fill you tank and drive to the crags or walk over fragile alpine plants your doing more to harm the environment than a bolt does. The real reason for bolts ( right or wrong) as I see it can be distilled down to these three reasons. Conveniece and accessability: Bolts enable people who don't have (or didn't bring) enough gear to otherwise climb a route. When have you ever seen a TR that could not be protected by a long sling and some clean pro? Very rarely. And everyone knows how much easier it is to draw and go than it is to fumble for just the right stopper. Bolts enable people to climb harder routes than they otherwise safely could: Hang dog enough times and you will probably get it. And if there is a bolt every 4 ft instead of every 30 (or 70) you don't have to be comfortable at the grade to try it. Protection of or connection of otherwise blank quality routes: The spacing is decided by the first accent party and in my opion should never ever be shortened. If the following parties can't climb it safely they should find another route and come back when they can. I think that sport areas, just like climbing gyms, are a good thing. My hardest grade was from hang dogging at Smith; and it was kind of fun but it was not a climbing experience to me. I think that it is a very good thing that there are places like that for people to climb if that is what they are into. The CRUX of the bolt subject , as far as I see it this: Part of mountaineering and climbing for some people is adventure and figuring out on their own how to work with the rock to fight against gravity. A climber can choose how much beta they want; and therefore how much adventure they want to give up. But once a bolt is placed that part of adventure is gone forever and all those who follow will never be able to experience it. Even if most climbers will use and even appreciate a bolt next to a difficult to protect crack or one placed in between bolts that were placed by the first party; I think that it is terribly wrong to take away the possibility of exploration and adventure from all of thos who might follow. No one has the right to climb a route, they have to earn the ability. No one has the right to take the adventure out of climbing for all those who may want to follow. "I don't care if the rotary club climbs Everest all sucking O's through houka pipes connected to a giant tank at base camp; as long as they leave the mountain the way they found it"...Chounard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 Bolts are a traditional method of protecting climbs whether you like it, or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 A terrible thing to admit, to be sure. Let's see, based on what I've been reading, you must be a bumbly who can't crank 5.6, and since you hold a minority position, you must be a radical. Last time I admitted to sharing your views, somebody compared me to Osama. And since bolts don't damage the environment to the same degree that, say, exploding gas pipelines do, we should quit worrying about them. Also, there's at least one climber doing 5.12 who thinks bolts are OK, so maybe you should too. Actually, you've hit the nail on the head: bolts remove challenge, and bolts certainly don't leave the cliff in any condition that could allow for subsequent parties to experience a natural, mountaineering challenge. The idea that lichen damage should be more of a concern? Kids, lichen thrives around here. When the lichen you see today is dead, and when the half-inch of rock below it has eroded away, we will still have bolt holes. If bolts were drilled at a more restrained pace, if we didn't have examples of abortions like Vantage to make us cringe, if we didn't have the last decades' bolt mania around Leavenworth, maybe old-timers like me wouldn't worry so much about the direction climbing seems to be going. Maybe the sporadic and thoughtfully placed bolt would be acceptable. I only hope that in the future we don't see a thread titled, "I admit it, I'm (mostly) anti-chipping." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 Anybody see Sean Issac's slide show? Bolts rock. "Remove the challange" my ass, they open up a whole world of chalanges. Just like the road you drive on to get to Leavenworth. [This message has been edited by lambone (edited 10-11-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 Gee, Ima, just extrapolate your logic and we'll all be cutting buckets on the blank walls next to ROTC. Then, "chalange" would exist where once it did not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 What's up with the strange metaphors of a strained and ill sexuality with pope's posts? He speaks of "rape" and "abortion", throwing them out there as if no woman had ever experienced the horrors associated with both. What has hurt you so deeply? Is the bolting issue for you an extension of the environmental degradation that we, as a people, have caused? Or is it an issue that stands outside of context entirely, something completely personal and subjective, simply existing as something "ugly" that removes challenge, because you say so? Sometimes I get the feeling that you want to hold the world hostage to your views, for I see very little in the way of an attempt to even TRY to understand or compromise. It's always a resort to some rigid ideal of how it's all "supposed" to be. The degree of passion that you feel is admirable, I suppose, but I wonder if this passion could be channeled in a direction that actually spoke of change; an attempt to actually change the environment we live in? Because, as I see it now, your voice is only concerned with lament and complaint; nothing positive seems to be brewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizard_brain Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 freeclimb9 - Tradition? For 10 years? Clearcutting is a tradition - does that justify clearcutting? ("But people have been doing it for years - it must be right!") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 to lizard brain: I reiterate that bolts are a traditional method of protecting climbs. Here in North America, the first "bolts" (crude iron spikes) were placed in 1875 when George Anderson climbed Yosemite's Half Dome for the first time. The first expansion bolts were placed during the first ascent of Shiprock in 1939 by Dave Brower (the Sierra Club's first executive director). And comparing clear cutting to bolting is an emotional response that's, in reality, absurd. John Dill, the head "climbing" ranger in Yosemite stated several years ago that the total volume of rock removed for placement of expansion bolts in the Valley --in his estimation-- was about equal to the volume of a shoebox. (BTW, clear cutting, according to my forester buddies, in some situations is the most environmentally sensitive way to harvest trees. But that's off the subject). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafael_H Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Terminal Gravity: ... The CRUX of the bolt subject , as far as I see it this: Part of mountaineering and climbing for some people is adventure and figuring out on their own how to work with the rock to fight against gravity. A climber can choose how much beta they want; and therefore how much adventure they want to give up. But once a bolt is placed that part of adventure is gone forever and all those who follow will never be able to experience it. Even if most climbers will use and even appreciate a bolt next to a difficult to protect crack or one placed in between bolts that were placed by the first party; I think that it is terribly wrong to take away the possibility of exploration and adventure from all of thos who might follow. No one has the right to climb a route, they have to earn the ability. No one has the right to take the adventure out of climbing for all those who may want to follow. "I don't care if the rotary club climbs Everest all sucking O's through houka pipes connected to a giant tank at base camp; as long as they leave the mountain the way they found it"...Chounard Congrats, Gravity, good first cut (there I go again, sounding condescending. I AM not!) Just compare carefully your paragraph to Chounard's quote. If you consiously climb for the achievement of it (poor english?), for your own accomplishment, to challenge y o u r s e l f and win (which is why I believe we all climb, knowingly or not), then why do bolts matter? You can forget about them, skip some, solo. What if some Bob Jones soloed all the 5.15's in the world, face and crack, then tried to make a cause that cracks are cheating because you can put pro? Intact, you say? Well, if you stand behind everything you said before [the paragraph above] then the impact is not in bolting, is it? Oxygen bottles and shit left all over are different from bolts. I almost broke up with my good friend (basically gave him my last "warning") when he admitted to tossing a shit-bag from a wall. Chipping and drilling is a very different story and the issue should only be approached with a super-cool head. We certainly should if not to avoid then keep "Vantage-like" bolting to the bare minimum. I don't think it is grid-bolted but is closer to than anything I've ever seen before. So by excercising restraint we will avoid somebody putting 10 closely bolted routes 6 feet apart from each other. I don't see Leavenworth being anywhere(!) near that situation. I haven't yet seen the climb Retrosaurus mentioned and believe that Leavenworth is definitely not the place to bolt any route protectable by "natural pro". Yet there are some sensible standards, measures by which we choose to protect a route. Is a rap anchor 30' above the ground sensible pro? Has anyone climbed it like that?(!) If no then let's not arm up against putting the old/stolen/back-cleaned pro back and bolt is not a bad candidate. What do you think? Chocolate, you shine again [This message has been edited by Rafael H (edited 10-11-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminal_Gravity Posted October 11, 2001 Author Share Posted October 11, 2001 Freeclimb9; I do support traditional bolting ethics. I even think that a sport bolted area has its place. However, there is nothing traditional about bolting next to a crack or bolting between the bolts placed by the first party on a blank section. It is the proliferation of bolts that makes me sad because it removes for all time the adventure from climbing. Rafael; You've good points; Thanks Pope: Your comments are just plain weird. First you try to insult me and then you seem to agree with me; but try to state that you are somehow more holy. For the record; I have clipped bolts, Pope have you? I also have skipped bolts only because they were not traditionally placed by the first party. Pope have you? I have not purchased a Freind since I found out that Jardine was a hold chopping muther fucker. Pope have you? And pope I have bumbled up a 13a, Have you? I have also smoothly climbed 11b 40 feet above the last bolt thankful that there was a bolt before the 11d crux. Have you; Pope you sniviling piece of shit. And, Pope, I put in 2 bolts on a first ascent of a 12a. the first involved 10b 20 feet above the deck before the first clip and extended 5.8 70 ft up with ground fall potential. I am proud of the route, I put the bolts in on lead, and in a traditional manner, and Pope you can kiss my ass if you don't like it....TG [This message has been edited by Terminal Gravity (edited 10-11-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 TG and Pope in Battle Cage!!!!!!! ROARRRR!!!! Who will survive to be the TRADDEST OF THE TRAD?? Popes gonna try some of that smooth movin Eiger sanction BS and TG is gonna open a can of whup ass on him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 I'm on the sidelines wondering if Sexual Buttnugget and Peter Penis Puller are one in the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizard_brain Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 freeclimb9- You missed my point entirely, free... -Does the fact that someone did something before you make something "traditional"? I mentioned clearcutting as an example....that's all it was - an example. I could have used anything else. Placing bolts is a tradition...that's cute. And it's a great justification! (Sigh....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 What's a "moondancer" anyways? Someone that drops their pants on stage while prancing around a pole? Or a Michael Jackson imitator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 Maybe it is a Pee Wee Herman comeback! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizard_brain Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 One more little thing... Anderson used rudimentary pitons - not bolts. And in 1875, I don't think he had cams as an option. Cams actually became popular as an alternative to pitons because of concern over permanent damage and scarring from...you guessed it...pitons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizard_brain Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 ...and the 10 year reference...I was refering to the recent proliferation of bolting. Bolting has become very trendy (as opposed to "traditional") over the last few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 Terminal, you seem(ed) like a smart guy. My first paragraph is a prediction of how I thought others would reply to your post. Complete sarcasm, based on comments I'd been reading...just a review of reasons others have submitted favoring bolts. No, I agree with you completely, but I can see where if you didn't get the joke you'd be upset. To most of your questions? Yes, except that I haven't struggled up a 5.13. Not on the lead, and not by hanging on bolts. I've TR'd 5.12c on sight (the "brown point")! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 Yes, DRU, I am a moondancer. A straight-up motherfucking sombitch of a moondancer, if I may add. I do it for a living. I am damn good. I get paid to do what I love. How many of you can say that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 So Chocolate do you have a feature down at the Spice Club nearby? Can you put your ankles behind your ears or what? Maybe you should post your photo up on the web too. Perhaps you have? Is it on http://www.whitehouse.com ? <<<<<-------- Porn site! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 quote: Originally posted by pope: Gee, Ima, just extrapolate your logic and we'll all be cutting buckets on the blank walls next to ROTC. Then, "chalange" would exist where once it did not! All I'm sayin, is that lines that climbers in the 80's could only dream of are now being climbed. No more waiting till one year when that fragile pillar might touch down. If you want it, train hard and get after it. More inportantly, fall off it-safely. These guys don't need to "cut buckets into blank walls," they got a jug in each hand that can edge like a dime. Ther will allways be a place for hard traditional mixed climbing in the mountains- but its like comparing apples to oranges. If the rock ain't gunna put out for gear, I say bolt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 quote: Originally posted by sexual chocolate: Yes, DRU, I am a moondancer. A straight-up motherfucking sombitch of a moondancer, if I may add. I do it for a living. I am damn good. And modest too! Go easy on your mom, she's getting fragile as she gets old. Or do you call her "Sis"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 I don't do porn, you ignorant neanderthal, I dance. And the dance that I do is called the Moondance. I am a Moondancer. It's what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 DRU, you have displayed your ignorance and churlish humor once again. Please refrain from posting, if this is all you can offer. Learn a skill, learn to dance. Learn to Moondance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 11, 2001 Share Posted October 11, 2001 So why don't you tell us what a Moondance is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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