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mattp

Negativity is bad for our sport

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Dru, My bad, I did misunderstand what you were saying. I thought you were putting those posters down not giving reasons for the few responses they tend to get.

What prompted the MSR to chase you???

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I went up to (Canadian) Sloan with my brother. Another party was close behind as we started the bushwack. We got well ahead of them and kind of split up. My brother thought he heard me yelling from bottom of a cliff, went to look, it was the other party, they thought he was stuck or something. He said "I don't need help" and took off to catch up with me. it starts raining, we spend several hrs. sitting out storms and decide to bail. Back at truck we find a note from other party saying "We heard someone calling for help, looked for 45 mins didn't see anyone. Hope you are OK. Give us a call." and a phone #. That was Monday. so Wednesday I'm back at work and can make free long distance calls, I call this guy up, and he says "Oh yeah we were really worried, we heard someone calling for help so when we got down we called out the RCMP, they had a helicopter up there searching but didn't find anything..." doh!!! Thanks for putting that into your note dumbass, we would have called sooner if we knew you were going to call out search & rescue on us! What kind of person hears "We don't need help" as a call for help anyways?

I guess what rankles is someone assuming I need a rescue as much as anything. I'm so used to thinking of myself as "experienced climber " that getting seen as a bumbly in need of a rescue is actually probably good for my ego in the long term. grin.gif

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Tell me how the logic of my aurgument changes if my identity is known? Someone pointed out that even the most rabid overbolters produced 5 good lines for every bad one. An while that ratio might be subject to debate I would like to hear about the other 5! I would like Viktor to be able to post without being told how shitty his guidebook is. I would like my kids to be able to view this site without me feeling a sense of embaressment.

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Hasnt everyone told Viktor his guidebook is good [except for the crumbly binding, and Classic Crack being 5.9 when it should be 5.8]? Correct me if I'm wrong but that was my impression. Maybe if you assume this site is negative all you see is negativity? and if you are worried about your kids looking at this site why are you using words like "shitty"? Pot calling kettle black here?

Mouth - soap!!!!

[This message has been edited by Dru (edited 08-09-2001).]

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Peter what I am saying is that half of your argument does not even fit this subject above.. Duh!

And if you want to peek your head out there and tell the public what it should be doing with this website then be prepared for some responses you might not like.

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Well thanks for the afternoon entertainment guys. I love this site. Gotta go home now and catch Jerry Springer's show...it's almost as good as this one! "So young, so angry, damn that rap music".

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Dru -

Many have said Viktor's guide was good after the comments stating how bad the drawings were made. For starters one of Retro's posts was patently offensive in his treatment of Viktor. Perhaps I shouldn't have said shitty but my intent was to conjure up the dismissive tone of the original posts. Don't worry about the kids I put the site on the ban list.

I see negativity but more importantly others such as MattP and those we have spoken to see it too. So while I'll generally agree with the " depends on if the glass is half empty or half full" way of looking at things, I do not think it is responsive to the case being made here.

Cavey -

help me out. Earlier I asked about how the logic of my aurgument would change. (as an aside: I have not complained about the responses I have recieved to my post with the one exception of mentioning that some actions attributed to me were clearly false)

Explain to me how "half of your argument does not even fit this subject above.. Duh!"

Please start by delineating the two halves.

Maybe Pope could help out by applying some of Richard v Mises' theories concerning statistics.

 

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First and foremost I agree with Matt and Peter. I have been lurking and posting on this site for quite awhile and have noticed a number of disturbing realities. The general negative overtone has increased, the threats and aggresiveness have moved from the keyboard and screen to the outdoors, and on a positive note, the amount of "useful" info has also increased with the popularity. The most disturbing to me is the reality of the threats, both to our crags and other individuals. A small group gets them selves all worked up, see they have some support and become the self-appointed ethics police. This "support" is also something I question, multiple posts by the same individuals and newbies taint the legitimacy of the support. I realize everyone has the right to their opinion, but I have seen posters request help on purchasing their first pair of climbing shoes one week, and the following, claim that bolts on particular routes (clearly too difficult for their abilities) are too close or unneccesary. I do not feel everyone has the qualifications to make these sort of rash claims, particularly new climbers or non climbers. This only becomes a problem when a group decides to take action based on these opinions, which is now happening. (I do know that there are also people posting who are legitimate hard asses, my helmet's off to you!) I have made an effort to stick up for what I believe is right or wrong, without being aggresively confrontational, which rarely coincides with the majority of posters on that particular thread. I've been threatened and ridiculed for my opinion. I have concidered stepping out from my anonymity (I agree that it effects the impact of the opinion) but what reassurance do I have that the threats won't be carried out? On the contrary I see just the opposite. Hence the reason I hesitate to show up at any gatherings. Many times I've read "if you knew me/him you'd realize he's a great guy". Actions speak for themselves, how many times does a "great guy" get to screw up before he's not that great anymore? I climb regularly with a very diversified crowd and know no one who supports the actions of a few "chestbeaters" that frequent this site. Why do they not post? It's easier not to, they don't want to get mixed up in the bullshit. Maybe they are smarter than myself for not facing the negativity. By no means do I consider constructive argumentation negative, on the contrary it is quite possitive and I rather enjoy it.

* and yes Peter there are many good climbs out there that are not publicly disclosed. On this website, if they get posted, the "poster" is portrayed as an egotistical sprayer or an overbolter. It's a shame.

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Well people, how about another view point.

I don't post here alot, but I read the posts allmost everyday, and for the most part, its O.K. The reason I don't post more is because I have nothing to say on those subjects, but I like to read what other people say. If I don't like the subject or the spray I quit reading that post( like DDD ) . When I have asked for info. I got good replys,(for the most part) and can throw my .02 worth in.

Whats the point? THIS SITES FINE, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. P.S. Thats my real name

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Great Topic. I bagged out of the pub club/ get together in Everett a few weeks back because I was so intimidated by the people here. I just started climbing and I'm bad. Really bad. I know I will have to climb with people that are better than I am to get better but at the same time I don't wan't to get ragged on by trad people because I'm doing it at a gym. I know that we're all not going to hold hands and sing songs, but I don't want to be treated like a total loser either........

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Look assholes, the KTK is a fucking joke. The term was invented by Lambone (a sport climber) and carried on as a joke. However I am considering organizing it for real now. Furthermore, no one has self appointed themselves the ethics police. Somebody rap bolted a line that some people had an issue with. END OF STORY. You're all making this AND this site into something it's not. Maybe this thread should read "Negativity is bad for this website" because I've never had any hassle with anyone at any crag for any reason.

So to me it sounds like all you little pussies are talking shit about something you don't even know about and trying to set a group of climbers aside as some Darth Vader influence out there, and there is none. Either on this site or at the crag.

If you don't like spray then put your minds together blow out and start a website called http://im40somethingandstillwanttobecool.com

I'm fucking done with this site!

[This message has been edited by mikeadam (edited 08-09-2001).]

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Skitty,

You needn't be intimidated by any of the harmless climbers who post here, and I seriously doubt anybody is going to put you down for climbing in a gym. Many, many people you might consider to be "trad" (still not sure what that means) spend countless hours in a gym 'cause it's good fitness. Also, you can meet a number of nice people there, some of whom can be a valuable mentor to you. Finally, when it's raining and you want a pump, what are you going to do? Pullups? Let's face it, folks, pullups are for containing spilled urine.

You're going to run into all types of climbers who will strike you as pretentious, narrow-minded and insecure, and a few of them will even flip you crap. Nevertheless, your average "trad" climber (if there is such a thing, and if I may generalize) doesn't really care about the style in which you climb, or whether you belong to a climbing gym. I think most of these guys are genuinely cool, and I think any of a number of them would be happy to climb with you and share a bucket of beer. If anything, these guys are a little hot about unrestrained bolting. Outside of that, they're like anybody else: they love to climb and hate to work.

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Scott, you shouldn't have to shut-up and keep quiet about it - and that's the point. Every now and again one of those "big animals walking around the forest" will start something dumb like that, and offended people should say something. I think there are just as many moderates here who will continue to argue for being considerate as there are trash talkers - it's all checks and balances. Just as people are deterred by the crap, I think there are just as many people who are attracted to this site for it. You can derive a lot of good information here, and if something bugs you, let 'em know. Similarly, if you're going to spray and be a big animal walking in the woods, you're also the biggest trophy on someone's wall.

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Nicest post I've ever seen from you Pope, although there is still somehow a slimy undertone. Did you find a new spot in the Icicle perhaps??

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Hey SlapAss,

I've always been a nice guy, and you know it! I get sick of people justifying their bolt drilling by countering that, "Hey, trad climbers are just a bunch of narrow-minded assholes. They're so macho, so arrogant. "F" them and their ethics, man." It's not about ego, kids. It's about preservation. It's about escaping the tame, overly engineered metropolitan areas and finding some clean rock.

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The asymmetrical reporting of customer service complaints cannot serve as a rational basis for analysis. I joined the VW earlier this year and a week later while climbing outside heard “Hi Peter” turned around and saw woman smiling on her way past. We traded beta and she wondered off. Only later did I realize that she was the VW employee who administered the belay test. Beyond the initial post which I am sure arose from a true sense of frustration with customer service, the post linking the VW to prostitution simply is derogatory in nature.

As far as preservation of the “museum” - if the point of the posts was simply to inform, they could have been made with less bravado. As a friend of mine pointed out the other day the threads related to DDD were like something out of Lord of the Flies.

It is not simply a case of people being afraid of being attacked by “spray dogs” but that there is an unremitting negativity that permeates the site. It is an uncontrovertible fact that people with real valuable info and yes, even humor, are avoiding this site because of the behavior exhibited on it. True, the postings do give the site its personality but that is a mere tautology. It’s the personality itself that is being decried. It is throwing a red herring into the mix to say that it is important not turn CC.com into a sterile reporting environment. Clearly no one is advocating that. What is wrong and contemptible is a poster with multiple identities, some of them existing only to foment trouble, posting to this thread under their “voice of reason persona.” What is wrong is a person with a reputation for smashing hangers flat on routes at Vantage promoting the removal of the DDD bolts as arising from a respect for environment and tradition. These specific items have been pointed out to me by people while I was encouraging to post to CC.com as reasons why they chose not to. It’s precisely because the site is not representative enough of “western society” that there is a problem.

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Peter Puget:

Dru -

Many have said Viktor's guide was good after the comments stating how bad the drawings were made. For starters one of Retro's posts was patently offensive in his treatment of Viktor. Perhaps I shouldn't have said shitty but my intent was to conjure up the dismissive tone of the original posts. Don't worry about the kids I put the site on the ban list.


 

I thought it was Smoots topos that were commented on as being poor... which they are, relative to Viktors. Anybody want to post a link to the original thread so we can see for ourselves? I'm too lazy to spend the time to look it up

sleepy.gif

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Originally posted by mikeadam:

Look assholes, the KTK is a fucking joke. The term was invented by Lambone (a sport climber) and carried on as a joke.

 

Look, I thought we went over this already. Don't call me a "sport climber". If you are going to call me anything you can call me a "all-arounder". Nice try covering up for the KTK. But your not fooling anyone, we saw you at the last Klan meeting. We are always watching...

And don't go saying that your "fucking done with this site" again when we all know very well that you will post again in just a few days.

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In memory of the stupidity of people that feel that there is a thing called KTK I named one of my routes KTK in the icicle. Then I turned around and named another Cell Phone Posse for the idiots that think they are funny by sending me that email last week. Yeah I guess you were funny tongue.gif

Some people's stupidity amazes me rolleyes.gif

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WOW my joke will live on in infamy! Make sure it gets published in the next guide book ok! And tell me where it is so I can go show my friends.

So what does it feel like to be a first ascensionist cavey? Is it everything you ever dreamed of?

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