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mattp

Negativity is bad for our sport

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Conversation on this site tends to go sideways fast because of the tendency to score points by making a witty remark even if it is not directly germane to the topic. sort of like a face to face conversation more than a conference call. Or trying to tell a story around a campfire with 100 drunks chipping in...

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I've been reading this stuff for about 3 weeks now and here's my take. When someone really wants some serious "beta", as you call it, he tends to get it (usually the straight dope without the smartass comments). This is great, probably what the board was designed for in the first place.

But, this makes for rather dull daily reading. So, Cas. Climber, in it's infinite wisdom has chosen to spice things up with the optional catagories i.e. spray, newbies, gear, etc...Makes for better entertainment/reading and much higher overall attendance.

So MattP, what's wrong with just tuning out the "offensive channels" and just use the more authoratative beta info. you're in need of?

What I personally find from reading the general babble is how socially removed most of you climbers seem to be from us non-climbers. It's like you live in your own little world. I'm not knocking you for that, it's just an observation. I still like reading your posts.

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Social niceties tend to be a disadvantage in the alpine? Like "Oh, I say old bean, you might wish to avoid that {SMUCK!}... too late, oh deah." doesnt work as well as just yelling "ROCK!" and to hell with the social preamble.

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quote:

Originally posted by Dan Petersen:

Useful communication does happen on this site.

I would say 20% useful 80% entertainment. I still think this forum is useful as long as one does not take it too seriously. So the alternatives are no site and no useful information OR this site and some useful info. I'll take the latter.

[This message has been edited by jblakley (edited 08-08-2001).]

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quote:

Originally posted by mattp:

...I must agree with those who are disturbed by the tone of some of the discussion here: insulting, abusive, and violent rhetoric do not belong on this site (or on the crag). I say this because they discourage or even prevent real communication and the exchange of information and, worse, this kind of conduct reflects poorly on the climbing community.

I agree with Brother Matt for the most part: And I certainly draw the line at the violence-threatening rhetoric. Some of you guys might be joking with your "bring it on, I know who you are" verbage, but it takes on a more serious and scary tone when expressed in the written work on the Internet. I ain't much into suppressing discourse, but gee whiz, show some civility! There's very little in the climbing world worthy of threats and a punch-out, even if someone see's your girlfriend peeing in the bushes or whatever! As has been said, this list is a mix of good information, variable attempts at entertainment, and occasional good-natured joshing. The truly mean stuff has got to go. And I'm not the only one who feels this way. There are a number of us who have been nearly driven away from participating with this group due to the juvenile expressions of violence. So, relax and have a good time and keep in mind that your mean talk can easily be misinterpreted by those who don't know you personally.

shalom, Dwayner

 

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A minor clarification:

mtncommunity.org is not my site. I am simply one member of a group of about ten who self-organized to create and administer it.

And, for what it is worth, and as I've said before, I agree with MattP.

-CC

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Nice.

Hey what a guy that is too good to return a friendly email agrees with Matt?!

On a note there I think Matt is one kewl dude. However I think that I like the entertainment value here way too much smile.gif

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I HATE negativity! And any arrogant jerk stupid enough to call other people names and threaten them should have their head ripped off!

Oh, sorry. I tend to be conceptionally challenged.

Really, though, I would have to agree with allthumbs on this one. Info on routes only would be rather dull. I think most who continue to hang out here enjoy the daily antics (as I do). And those who wish to get useful info usually do.

I've actually learned quite a bit though just from reading "non-sense". Like someone once said to me, this is like a bunch of climbers sittin' around a camp fire telling stories, jokes, shootin' their mouths off, etc. Enjoy it, join in, or leave.

We all have to make our own decisions in life rather than leave it up to someone else to "moderate" us. And to have everyone show courtesy and respect to others and moderate themselves... well, isn't that everyone's dream in life? Sometime you just got to ignore the rude ones, or maybe read between the lines, or perhaps be less sensitive.

An old proverb says "the stupid one is quick to take offense."

I think jblakely has got the right ratio. And coincidentally probably about 80% of us are here for the entertainment.

[This message has been edited by Jman (edited 08-08-2001).]

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I agree with Matt 100%. Climbing for me is about fun, meeting new people, and being outside. I have ran into more then my fair share of mean-spirited people in the out of doors, but the majority of hikers, climbers, and mountain bikers seem to be fairly mellow, down to earth people.

I actually hope to be considered one of those myself, and try to surround myself with those types also.

Life is too short to hang out with ASSHOLES!

p.s. Matt, it was great to hear about your some of your adventures, and a pleasure to meet you.

To Everyone at Hatties- Can' wait til next week!

ALKI?

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quote:

Originally posted by Dru:

Social niceties tend to be a disadvantage in the alpine? Like "Oh, I say old bean, you might wish to avoid that {SMUCK!}... too late, oh deah." doesnt work as well as just yelling "ROCK!" and to hell with the social preamble.

That's not really a good example of what I was getting at with the "social" comment. What I find is that you guys speak a different language than the rest of us. Especially evident when giving good beta on routes/climbs. I ask myself "what the hell are they talking about"? LOL Like I said, I love reading your goofball posts, I just don't understand it all the time. But then, who gives a shit what allthumbs understands?

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Another of the second wave of sprayers I referred to....

What you probably don't realize is that some of those people probably actually DO feel derision and scorn for the endless babble going on here. Many of those people felt the same way about climbers in general before this thing came online. This is the electronic equivalency of that contempt.

Frankly, I think that some of those people have contributed more to the promotion and development of this website than many of you ever will with all your good natured posturing and "happy happy joy joy I know how to use a rope talk."

I find it quite boring actually and this discussion is getting quite dull as well. There is really nothing you can do except posture and throw your "positivism" around the cyber universe. We'll come and go as we please, saying what we please in the process.

[This message has been edited by mikeadam (edited 08-09-2001).]

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I agree with Matt 100%, this site has become too negative. Nobody even argues against that any more, everyone knows it has. Now the argument is, why everyone should have to tolerate that negativity.

This website has taken on a distinct personality and it is not the personality of a ‘Cascade climber’. If it were a person, I would describe Mr. CC.COM as a self centered 20-something, without the life experience necessary to realize what an egocentric dumbass he is. Mr. CC is negative, selfish, meanspirited, and arrogant and he justifies this behaviour as okay, because he is having fun and is entertained. He doesn’t understand the importance of treating others with respect and doesn’t possess even a modicum of humility or common sense. Sure sometimes he’s funny, he has some route beta, and he shares my interest in climbing, but mostly he is just an obnoxious, little PRICK!

Why would I want to hang out with somebody like that? Why would I want to logon to a website like that? I DON’T.

I won’t be reading the next post or any of the ones after that. Why would I care, what an obnoxious, little prick has to say.

Regards

 

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In general Mark hits the nail on the head BUT I would ask him and those non posters who happen to read this to consider that their posts are important and part of the solution. It's not just the threatening or mean spirited (Interview with a Well Respected..)posts but the general tone. For example: Washington guidebooks suck thread - or - Vertical world employees are rude threads. I know many people who have good information concerning existing routes as well as info regarding new or recent FAs. They refuse to release information to this web site. Since I know them and know the information is good I can't help wonder what other info is out there but hidden by those people I do not know. My guess is that there is a ton of great stuff we are all missing!

To paraphrase: Posts aren't killing this site people are.

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This is good stuff guys! It's good to see this site as a whole take a self-inventory. As a person I am not static in my thoughts or opinions and this thread has got me to thinking.

I do not agree with everything that has been said but I like the atmosphere of honesty.

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Guest

It's all about what you want to take (get, give or receive) from the experience, out there or in here.

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So let me ask you. Should the person who posted the thread about the Vertical World employees rudeness simply have let is slide? People have a right to know when a business falls down in it's obligations to a customer don't they?

And don't people have a right to know when some overzealous "legends" (not my legends) start rap bolting a museum piece crag? A commentary like that appeared to me to be a way to ease the tensions and NO I don't know who posted that.

And Mark that was walking a pretty thin line there. Careful where you step.

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quote:

Originally posted by mattp:

In the last couple of weeks I have talked with several people who know of this site but do not post because they feel that the highly contentious nature of some of the discussion can only do more harm than good. It may be said that much of what appears here should be viewed as entertainment rather than substantive, so maybe we shouldn't take any of it too seriously. However, I must agree with those who are disturbed by the tone of some of the discussion here: insulting, abusive, and violent rhetoric do not belong on this site (or on the crag).

 

I must say, I have more respect for someone like Lambone, who posted to this site, took a lot of flamage, gave back as good as he got, and perservered to become a valued member of the cc.com regular sprayers, than I do for someone who complainsd that they aren't gonna post to this site at all because they might get a) insulted or b) substantively criticized... or c) ignored, like half the people that post here looking for beta on the size of crevasses on the latest obscure walk-up or what conditions will be like in Lillooet 6 months from now...

 

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MattP and Mark have good points, but at the same time the crap that flies around here is what gives this board its personality. If people simply want information exchange - go to the NPS websites, GORP or WTA...they do a great job. Just like any social circle people don't have a 'right' to be here. If you lurk long enough you'll know that if you open your big mouth, you'll eventually have the spray dogs coming after you...which isn't much different than the world outside of cyberspace. Some climbers are arrogant bastards, some are nice as all hell but I wouldn't have it any other way. BTW - trashing an entire company, climbing gym or not, for the behavior of one employee (and we don't know the whole story - she could've refused to give Cavey her phone number smile.gif ) is weak.

[This message has been edited by EddieE (edited 08-09-2001).]

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Can't we all just get along? -Rodney King

This site reflects our western culture as a whole- The same elements of interpersonal interaction we experience in the real world come to life here, an online doppelganger of ourselves - some of us are rude in everyday life, some of us are humanists. We have self centered posters, selfish posters, mean posters, poser posters- and also smart, thoughtful, curteous posters.

I for one am NOT a selfish, mean spirited prick and think most of the CC.com types I've met are far from that- I encourage all to attend a Pub Club meeting to come see in person who some of us climbers really are!

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"or c) ignored, like half the people that post here looking for beta on the size of crevasses on the latest obscure walk-up or what conditions will be like in Lillooet 6 months from now..."

Dru, this is exactly what Mark was saying a while ago. He was referring to young people without the life experience to show respect for others and a bit of humility for themselves. Consider this: there may actually be someone out there who has little or no climbing experience and simply wants to post on this site to learn and is asking questions at the risk of looking stupid. People like you make it exceptionally difficult for that to happen.

If I work real hard, apply myself every day and stay focused, when I grow up can I be just like you Dru??? Please, try a bit of humility, it smells much better than the cologn you are currently wearing.

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Johnny, I think you misunderstand me, perhaps deliberately? There are a lot of posts on this bb that are never replied to and they are the ones that no one can answer. I can pretty much guarantee that if someone posts a question like "what is the biggest cam I need to take on the Beckey Route on Liberty Bell" they will get a quick informative answer. But if somebody posts "how big is the bergschrund on Mt. Meager right now" the post will be ignored - its gonna sit there unanswered for months and months because nobody on this board is climbing Meager. Same with the question about upcoming conditions in Lillooet, you cant answer a question like that, so its either going to be ignored or someone is going to post a smart ass answer like "Extremely wet, if Lyle spills the keg again." So where is the humility I need for that? I can be as humble as anyone - hell I has search and rescue out looking for me last weekend!! rolleyes.gif

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sounds like we got a good old fashioned witch hunt.

i am sarcastic and partially self-centered, but then again what twenty something insn't. i mean it comes along with being 23 and invinsible. rolleyes.gif

i think i have typed this before:

"stick and stones may break my bones, but internet chat will never hurt me!"

everyone is right about threats and acts of therortical violence. they are bullshiznit but why don't we go turn on our tv's(i'll have to come over to someone's house) and watch what goes on. this babble that we partake in and enjoy is passe' to what you can watch on network t.v.

i bet we all could chill out, and beck is right we all should attend a pub club or 2, to smell each other out.

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quote:

Originally posted by erik:

sounds like we got a good old fashioned witch hunt.

i mean it comes along with being 23 and invinsible.
rolleyes.gif

i bet we all could chill out, and beck is right we all should attend a pub club or 2, to smell each other out.

"Invinsible" - when you can't be seen, you can't be hurt. (Yeah EDOG I am making fun of your spelling!!!!)

When pub Club comes to Sumas or Bellingham I'll be there in my stinky best otherwise smellout will have to wait for Fall MegaFest.

 

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Peter I and others can only suspect we know your identity...

I think you are part of the problem of no namers...... That said get the F7(*&( off your horse and tell us who you are. Or nobody cares what you got to say being another nameless character.

Ding!

Webmeister Jonny can you order up some more Vanilla flavored postings here!?

[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 08-09-2001).]

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