shaoleung Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 I'm often a fan of bolts when it comes to safety, but I was more than a little disappointed with the bolt anchor on top of Pumpline. Not even so much that they were at the top of a beautiful trad test-piece, but that they were less than stellar placements. If you're planning on TRing it, a solid anchor can be built with a couple big cams in the surrounding cracks. Boo to convenience bolting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el jefe Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 shaoleung says "boo", but dwayner says "boo, boo, boo!" two more "boos" and you, too, can achieve raindawg-dementia! just keep working at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 LAME Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancegranite Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 My faded memories suggest that there used to be an old rap anchor on top of this route. Is this not the case? Great route in a nice setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaoleung Posted May 4, 2010 Author Share Posted May 4, 2010 I got on it for the first time last spring and there were no anchors. There are plenty of bolted rap anchors around Careno but the walk off from the top of pumpline is very safe & easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kukuzka1 Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 gotta keep it bombproof safe for the masses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 Test piece...get the outta here...ha...ha...ha...but I'll say it's a nice route I don't see a big deal about it? How many bolts are in the proximity of the route? Hundreds....? The place is called Careno CRAG. I don't see anything wrong with throwing an anchor on that as long as there are no bolts on the route. Lets talk about something different...say for example Air Roof. It has bolts next to a crack where you could, it would be a pain, walk off. On this route you could build a gear anchor. BTW, if anyone has some extra time please replace the anchors on air Roof. They suck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S1W Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 First of all, I should say that it does bum me out slightly that this negatively effected your experience. That sucks. That said - I've heard the semantics, and know that feelings about these things tend to go towards the intolerance of religious zeal. But really, I'm trying to figure out why this anchor would really bother someone that much? Admittedly, Pumpline may not be an example of this, but IMHO many routes in Leavenworth as a whole could use more convenience, not less. There are good lines that are dirty and don't get climbed as often as they should because its a PITA to do so or because they have old hardware that needs replacing. In terms of impact, I guess I just see it differently. I think rapping off of a chain anchor is cleaner and has way less impact than hiking down eroding dirt or leaving a nest of slings around a tree or boulder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kukuzka1 Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 I think its more the single act of bolting next to a crack and possibly sending the wrong impression to the younger climbers that thats the norm and ok. ive never done that climb so im just going by the aboves statement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 Bolts get such a quick knee jerk reaction. I think you have to pick and choose your battles. Anchors on Pumpline....big friggin deal. Bolts on Dan's Dreadful Direct...I see why they chopped them. It's a fantastic line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kukuzka1 Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 they get a reaction because once an area establishes the norm/history usually thats how most climbers obey that tradition, such as no bolts,ground up,ect so if it becomes common practice to bolt next to cracks then thats what 90% will do. the other 10% will do what they want anyways.just because a climb isnt a "classic" dosnt make a difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 they get a reaction because once an area establishes the norm/history usually thats how most climbers obey that tradition, such as no bolts,ground up,ect so if it becomes common practice to bolt next to cracks then thats what 90% will do. the other 10% will do what they want anyways.just because a climb isnt a "classic" dosnt make a difference unchecked idealism leads to blind stupidity...ground up..no bolts....etc. I doubt anyone will start bolting next to cracks. It's like a paranoia....ooooo bolts nexts to cracks...who knows of a bolted hand crack in Washington State? Tradition is to be guarded but not used as a spearhead. Your right, "classic" doesn't make a difference. Look at how many bolts are next to cracks on El Cap...... This is a fun little topic to waste a little time on, but I'm done now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kukuzka1 Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 Oh my idealisms are in full check. yes its not the end of the world, theirs bigger problems, ect.. i was just commenting my personal feelings toward that kind of bolting it may not lead to further such activity but no one really knows that. as far as elcap ive always said it would wild if bolts were banned their from the begining, their would probibly be eight routes and the easiest would be a true grade 6 5.11R A-3+ I know thats unrealalistic and i dont hate bolts, i love um Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 werd bro. I luv'em too and climbin. Nuthing personal, just playin devils advocate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankazoid Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 (edited) In terms of impact, I guess I just see it differently. I think rapping off of a chain anchor is cleaner and has way less impact than hiking down eroding dirt or leaving a nest of slings around a tree or boulder. Dind ding ding. We have a winner. There are MANY routes all over the friggin icicle that deserve a nice bolted anchor. The hillsides are getting so F'kd up from all the damn walkoffs. I think it would be the MOST eco friendly thing to do and would have huge immediate-postitive results for the shrubs and dirt. A great example is the walk off from 8 mile butress. I did the tree route for the first time yesterday and while the climb was excellent, I was definetly not stoked on what my feet were doing to the soil on the way down. It has a slung tree atop the last pitch but would need a bolted anchor atop the 2nd pitch in order to rap the whole route (with a single rope. which is how most folks climb it.) It would all equal to... more climbing in the day (time taken from walk offs), hugely reduced soil erosion and plant detsruction, reduced number of retarded injurys from the walk offs like rolled ankles... shit its a no brainer. anyhow thats just my own opinion. and maybe one or two others. Edited May 7, 2010 by Frankazoid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telemarker Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 A great example is the walk off from 8 mile butress. I did the tree route for the first time yesterday and while the climb was excellent, I was definetly not stoked on what my feet were doing to the soil on the way down. You can do two double rope raps down Mr. Tremendous, avoiding further erosion on 8 Mile Butt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 they get a reaction because once an area establishes the norm/history usually thats how most climbers obey that tradition, such as no bolts,ground up,ect so if it becomes common practice to bolt next to cracks then thats what 90% will do. the other 10% will do what they want anyways.just because a climb isnt a "classic" dosnt make a difference unchecked idealism leads to blind stupidity...ground up..no bolts....etc. I doubt anyone will start bolting next to cracks. It's like a paranoia....ooooo bolts nexts to cracks...who knows of a bolted hand crack in Washington State? Tradition is to be guarded but not used as a spearhead. Your right, "classic" doesn't make a difference. Look at how many bolts are next to cracks on El Cap...... This is a fun little topic to waste a little time on, but I'm done now. i remember a certain someone who got all in a huff over a certain spanish crack that was bolted...can't remember his name, TIM, can you?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crillz Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 You can do two double rope raps down Mr. Tremendous, avoiding further erosion on 8 Mile Butt. But then you couldn't claim a legit onsite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 PUSH ME --> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spore Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 Yawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 careful...a fly might buzz in for a look-around... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 (edited) Great link find Rudy!!!! Interesting to see Dwayner complimenting me. This one below got a chuckle from me. You might also want to coordinate with the guy who is going to redrill and rebolt the route after you finish, and discuss what type of bolts to use on the second and third drillings to make it easier and cheaper for the both of you. Could be easier to merely arm wrestle to see which of you gets to impose their will over the other rather than continually drilling and filling holes in a nice rock. Communication before action? Tim, what did you wind up doing over in Spain? Did you show the euros the American way and whack them off? ps, convenience bolt rappels are getting installed in the valley with no action from the locals (Royal Arches etc). I find it disturbing as it greatly reduces the commitment. Furthermore, there appears to be more accidents and sar callouts from idiots rappelling than before. That might be a function of more folks.... I can't make a judgment on these, as it's for you locals, including guys like Pope and Raindawg, to decide. Good luck! Edited May 7, 2010 by billcoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitchaserCJB Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 Great link find Rudy!!!! Interesting to see Dwayner complimenting me. This one below got a chuckle from me. You might also want to coordinate with the guy who is going to redrill and rebolt the route after you finish, and discuss what type of bolts to use on the second and third drillings to make it easier and cheaper for the both of you. Could be easier to merely arm wrestle to see which of you gets to impose their will over the other rather than continually drilling and filling holes in a nice rock. Communication before action? Tim, what did you wind up doing over in Spain? Did you show the euros the American way and whack them off? ps, convenience bolt rappels are getting installed in the valley with no action from the locals (Royal Arches etc). I find it disturbing as it greatly reduces the commitment. Furthermore, there appears to be more accidents and sar callouts from idiots rappelling than before. That might be a function of more folks.... I can't make a judgment on these, as it's for you locals, including guys like Pope and Raindawg, to decide. Good luck! In reference to the rap anchors on Royal Arches. I really don't think it is my place to criticize as I've climbed that route just once. However, considering the fact that the first rap is 200 feet, it doesn't make sense when there are bolt anchors like every 50 feet down the head wall. I don't know who did that but it doesn't make sense because you need two ropes to do the first rap, why not space the rest of the raps at 200 feet? We sometimes passed two intermitant anchors on our way to a third. Whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 Why not have no raps, and leave it like it was for the first 50 years or so after the FA? The bolt count on that wall use to be zero for 50 years or so, and it never impeded climbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitchaserCJB Posted May 7, 2010 Share Posted May 7, 2010 (edited) I'd say that is a bit, to borrow a term, regressive. 200 foot raps are conveniant. If you think there is no place in climbing for conveience, so be it. But I liked the raps. Just thought the spacing was wacko. And I'll admit, I didn't know that about the 50 years of no bolts. That does change things. I'll leave it to the locals to work it out (sounds like they already have). Edited May 7, 2010 by summitchaserCJB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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