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kevbone

Chopped bolts

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I think that safety ought to be paramount to this question of local ethic (where no bolts allowed)...

 

...

 

If a safety bolt here or there does it, then I'm all for it.

I'm definitely NOT down with this kind of sentiment. It's explicitly what transforms the very concept of 'climbing' into risk-free entertainment. There are routes you simply have to have the skill, craft, and head to do safely, where if you fuck up you could be seriously hurt or die. There are several of those at DZ/FS and they are perfect just as they are.

 

If we put as much time collectively into appealing to the powers that be as we do into endless arguments like this, we could go a long way toward having Beacon open year-round with more isolated closures like we all want.

If only that were true. But unfortunately wanting, wishing, and appealing, no matter how many peaple are collectively involved, has little to nothing to do with it as discussed on several Beacon threads.

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Sheriff ey? In most sports, the "best" get to decide the direction of the sport

 

Watch out Michael

Here is a photograph of the worlds greatest basketball player, NBA commissioner David Stern getting ready to [img:left]url=http://people.famouswhy.com/images/david_stern_picture3.jpg[/img] throw it down

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I love gym climbing. I love sport climbing. I love crack climbing. I love climbing at Beacon. I love climbing in groups. I love climbing with just one partner. I love climbing at all the portland areas. I just love to rock climb.
diversity is the spice of life... do everything at least once! :tup:

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I love gym climbing. I love sport climbing. I love crack climbing. I love climbing at Beacon. I love climbing in groups. I love climbing with just one partner. I love climbing at all the portland areas. I just love to rock climb.
diversity is the spice of life... do everything at least once! :tup:

 

Almost everything. :lmao:

yeah, ok... almost everything :laf:

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I hate being stuck on plastic when its raining. I hate when people bolt next to a crack. I hate going elbow to elbow at crags. I hate when people put anchor bolts at the top of a climb within 5 feet of a tree or slung boulder anchor.

 

I love that there is a diversity of rock in oregon requiring a variety of ethics and tools for climbing. I love that my favorite climbing area is bolt free and will always stay that way. I love that that place has a long drive and has a biatch of an approach keeping away those that would ruin it with bolts.

 

P.s. I'm saddened by Spring Mountain and look to places like Ramona Creek Crag for the future of boltless cragging in Oregon.

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interesting - now we actually have something less heated than the fiasco we had earlier in this thread...

...is there an implied obligation to keep one's FAs clean?...

i don't think that was on my mind originally, but since you brought it up i'll elaborate.

 

of all the FA that i have done - and they have all been at farside - they always required extensive cleaning, meaning that i had to rap down and take care of the bigger shit and trundle some stuff the size of basketballs and barbeques. i thought briefly about what i was doing and the length of time that such objects had been in place before i had disturbed them from their resting places, but those thoughts were quite fleeting. what really got me thinking was when i started to ponder how long it had been since the rock i uncovered had seen the actual light of day, and in most cases i bet it was quite a long time. uncovering history - or as i liked to say to myself, going back in time - is the way i rationalized it. it was necessary if the line was to be climbed, but it was a disturbance nonetheless so you could say that i upset the natural order of things by cleaning it. but we are climbers and in order for us to climb we look at what is needed to ascend the rock - for mine i needed rock, first :laf: and i uncovered a lot of it - enough that by the time both adam and i finished cleaning our lines we had a really cool system of platforms at the base that make for an interesting place to hang out while belaying...

 

anyway... if one does a line and cleans it enough so that it could see some traffic (providing that it would be interesting enough to repeat) then keeping it clean isn't really all that hard. since i put up my lines at farside i have used them as a quick way to descend to the base and have brushed away stuff on my way down. when a line is clean it appears more appealing just because you don't have to fight with the brush or the moss, or whatever grows on or nearby the route. for the route to slip away and become abandoned or forgotten it would have to grow over so badly that to clean it would almost be repeating the actions to do the FA all over again. two of my FA are so terribly dangerous that i wouldn't recommend that anyone go do them unless they are really soft in their slippers, since the loose stuff is so large that dislodging them would/could be catastrophic to the belayer, but since i view climbing as a form of exploration, adventure and discovery about myself and my environment the cleaning i did was well worth the time, regardless if the line ever gets repeated. if you are looking for a heady, mini, 50 foot adventure then my route(s) is/are well worth it, but in my own mind they were purely about doing something that had never been done before and finding out if i had what it took to do it. i don't repeat the route too much. i do climb it once in a while albeit not out of a sense of duty (though that is as good a reason as any i have ever heard) but to remember the trepidation and excitement that i felt the first time i was leading it. and at one point it will slip into obscurity, regardless of how much i do it or how clean i can make it...

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I hate being stuck on plastic when its raining.
this is why i started aiding...

 

I hate going elbow to elbow at crags. I hate when people put anchor bolts at the top of a climb within 5 feet of a tree or slung boulder anchor.

this is the same philosophy that i want to avoid at farside - the ozone standard... :eek:

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i think it's great there are scary routes at drop zone. even if i choose never to lead (or repeat!) a few of them.

 

anyone who wanders over from ozone without a guidebook will soon discover why bill and jim call it the far side. sure, they might start on the 6-8 routes there that have bolts, but all those routes are heady and at a minimum require stout and funky 5.9 and up climbing on gear that is usually thin, marginal and hard to see. not most people's cup of tea! but for the masochistic few, a reason to be. hence these passionate threads.

 

from there, if you aren't turned off yet, the routes get bolt-free and the truly spicy climbing begins. none of the routes are all that hard by grade, or physically, but you had better have a few dozen 5.10 trad onsights under your belt, and been in enough sketchy spots to keep cool in sketchy spots.

 

beyond my own few routes i've only led maybe 5-6 routes there (and toproped another 10-15) - cuz i spend all my limited time gloriously agonizing over the routes i'm trying to put up - and i can safely say that each one of them had a sequence (or two) where at ozone or madrone or broughton there would likely be a bolt. but not here. they aren't the hardest routes, and a 5-12 climber who isn't afraid to run it out might not be too bothered. but if you don't climb well above the grade you are leading....

 

anyway, fair warning, if anyone reading this is thinking about heading down.

 

PS - try not to get hurt if you go, that's the wrong kind of attention!

 

 

 

 

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I hate being stuck on plastic when its raining.
this is why i started aiding...

 

 

Been aiding since 2002, in and out of the rain. Doesn't change my attitude about necessary plastic training. As fun as aid is it will not help break thru the 5.11+/5.12- free barrier...

Edited by Checat

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"World standard". Hardly. everywhere is different, shaped by the localized standard.

 

Kevbone world standard maybe.

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Bernd Arnold, yeah he's totally lazy. Schrammstene. No new bolting. No cams. No nuts. No chalk. Soft webbing slung into cracks and thread thrus for pro.

 

Scope the climbing porn The Sharp End. If you didn't know, now you know...

 

Putting bolts in rock is HARDLY THE WORLD STANDARD. Just because we americans apply bolts and sport climbing to all the areas we branch out and vacation to doesn't mean there isn't a rich history in clean ethics.

 

Kevbone you should think twice before speaking for the world.

 

http://www.travelpod.com/cache/attr_maps/Elbe_Sandstone_Mountains-Bad_Schandau.gif

 

http://www.saechsische-schweiz.de/start/click.system?lang=en

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Ugh, I hate that I've got so interested in this discussion...and I got sucked in just trying to spread some info--isn't anyone interested in those pitons?

 

from CL, again not my ad:

14 rock climbing pitons, ALL are stamped CHAMONIX; research has led us to circa. 1950s-1960s. Made by Charlet Moser in Chamonix, France from alloy steel. Very short piton with a wide 'spoon' blade. C.M. began making medium-hard cadmium plated pitons in the 1950s forward. These all appear to have never been used. We aquired them from a personal estate sale, not knowing what they were at the time. They just don't fit in with our collectables.

 

These would be great for that special antique collection; bet you don't have any of these! A conversation piece for sure.

 

$20 cash only please.

 

503-720-7693

 

I think that safety ought to be paramount to this question of local ethic (where no bolts allowed)...

 

...

 

If a safety bolt here or there does it, then I'm all for it.

I'm definitely NOT down with this kind of sentiment. It's explicitly what transforms the very concept of 'climbing' into risk-free entertainment. There are routes you simply have to have the skill, craft, and head to do safely, where if you fuck up you could be seriously hurt or die. There are several of those at DZ/FS and they are perfect just as they are.

 

...

 

I messed up the quote formatting here somehow--that's Joseph just above responding to MY quote...

 

Joseph, I get your argument/ethic, and you could appeal to me with it regarding "real" climbing, perhaps...but then we're talking about the spectrum between top roping and free soloing (the "purest" 'climbing'), which all along bears real risk in different degrees (i.e. not "risk-free"), as well as entertainment, one would hope.

 

We're talking about "cragging" though, and though I didn't make it explicit I've already been consciously using that word to make a distinction from what I guess you JH, at least, would imply with "climbing" and to differentiate the discussion herein from one about, say, the Menagerie, or Beacon for that matter--places where I might be more apt to agree.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong--and I may well be--but to me "cragging" implies single pitch, multiple "routes" in a small vicinity, easy access, convenience anchors, practice for the 'real' stuff, and yes, even throngs of people. Sure it's not necessarily always all those things, but that's generally what I connote with the word, and DZ already has all those qualities save the throngs.

 

People seem pretty bent on the idea that a "practice bolt ladder" would be a good idea here (at DZ). I don't know any of you guys any better than what I glean from these forums, and brief greetings with a couple of you at crags. I'm guessing that Joseph, who seems to me a pretty black and white sort of character, isn't down with the bolt ladder idea either--don't know for sure. In any case, that's just another aspect of DZ that would seem to support my connotations.

 

Anybody who wants to can skip any and all bolts they want to; that someone free solos a given route certainly doesn't mean all bolts on the route ought to be chopped, however. I've certainly skipped lots of bolts, but, for me, if there's a bolt there, or fixed gear, and I think there's a serious danger/risk of ground/ledge fall, nobody's gonna write on here about me that it's too bad he (I) didn't just clip into it.

 

Can anyone (who doesn't want any bolts) explain to me how bolted anchors are okay in a place you can top out and be closer to your car than where you left the deck? Perhaps I'm mistaken in thinking anyone supports that (seeming?) contradiction. The only thing I can think of is that anchors are a necessary "evil" offset by the impact that they prevent up top...certainly they're convenient, but I would definitely argue that safety bolts are paramount to convenience anchors.

 

BTW, I want to thank you guys who've responded to me for engaging me here. I know I'm an outsider and some of you are probably not happy that I even know anything about the DZ...this is where I announce that I'm gonna start pestering Bill for this apparent route guide...after all how am I supposed to know anything about the ethics/precedents here if I can't even get my hands on the guide wherein they're documented?

 

Chris

 

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All this hate toward Ozone! We're too cool for school so we're going to XYZ crag and climbing dirty 5.5 gully climbs to get away from the common man. Ozone can indeed feel a bit monotonous at times, reach up high grab a jug, repeat. However there is lots of gear leads to be had at Ozone, they just happen to be bolted.

 

Many of the routes at Ozone can be climbed by skipping the bolts. Some routes are really easy to do this on, while others can be exciting with the possibility of hitting the ground. There would be a good goal for the summer, repeat every Ozone route without bolts. I would bet the right (er stupid) person could lead 75% of the routes out there on natural gear. The crux would be ignoring all the bumpkins from Washougal (Sorry Nate F, you're the best thing to come out of that town) yelling at you to "use the metal rings."

 

Portland's most popular 5.12 sport climb (The Crumbling/Ozone) recently saw a trad lead. Not classic like oh say Super Crack, but still a good challenge. ( don't fall at the crux broken bones for sure) If clipping bolts bores you, there is plenty of good gear routes at the bolt zone. I'd love to see someone do an all natural lead of masterpiece theater, I see some pro options down low but no idea what you would do up high...

 

-Nate

Edited by eldiente

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unless those are your bolts! (they're not mine)

 

then again, we're back to convenience anchors now.

 

is JS supposed to leave his own gear in the crack and just hope and pray that every other climber lowers off instead of snagging the gear?

 

i don't quite get what's so wrong...other than the fact that maybe the climb should have been (for argument's sake) 10 feet longer, if there was even 10 feet more climbable rock above? (and now we are maybe into the dilemna of balancing 10 feet of 5-6 or whatever easier climbing against scraping off 10 feet of ecosystem)

 

i can name climbs at smith and beacon and elsewhere that have bolted anchors somewhere near cracks, because that was a damn good place to stop the climb! (wrong gull, dod's jam, windsurfer, etc)

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wow, the crumbling went on gear? who? when? after how many toprope burns? i think that's rad and someone needs to tell jason kohler! (he drilled 'em)

 

even before i get the answers, i can say that anyone can risk life and limb to skip bolts if their willpower and skills are strong enough, but that does NOT give them the right to chop bolts.

 

but as nate said, it is an awesome personal challenge to maybe aspire to.

 

markd would never spray this, but he led bloodline - 12b at broughton - on all gear. and he didn't even CONSIDER chopping the bolts because he realized this was a personal quest and that the bolts absolutely serve a valid purpose and it would be selfish to chop them.

 

i used to say that dean potter could solo every route at ozone, but that doesn't mean he could then chop every bolt....

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and speaking from experience and knowledge, the bolts at ozone were placed with the onsighter in mind, not the headpointer. i think nate totally gets that and he's making the point that the existence of bolts is not a mandate to clip them.

 

ozone in 2010 is not ozone in 2004. unless you were there you have no idea how much those routes have cleaned up, and how much easier they probably are now that every hold is chalked, the loose ones broken, sometimes leaving bigger holds. a lot of the 10s probably feel 5.9 now, and so on.

 

 

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kev, i don't think nate said any of that stuff.

 

i thought his point was that just because some climbs got bolted doesn't ruin a crag because you can use your own brain and create adventure by skipping bolts or whatever.

 

 

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Funny as I had never even thought about placing gear on a bolted route until Jaime told me about what Mark had done out at Broughton. Yikes!

 

The bolts at Ozone make these type of gear leads possible. Trying to lead a face climb out there without bolts and with no cleaning would be a suicide mission. (and not any fun) I'm too much of a sissy to try any of those routes without first checking them out from the safety of the bolts.

 

The Crumbling is a lot of fun on gear, the low crux has no gear and climbs like a high boulder problem. At the broken horizontal the first gear goes in, from there lots of good gear options while moving up on the jugs. (brass nuts, C3s behind flakes) The finish takes a bomber Alien in that right-hand finger lock, of course that jams up the finger lock that you really need to use on that roof. Doh! I ended up not placing the cam and moved up to the anchor.

 

*Side note, bottom climbs like a V4ish boulder problem, maybe you could use pads to help soften a fall? After 15-20 feet it eases off there is lots of good gear, sew it up. The upper crux by the chains has no gear, falling here would be scary but painless as the route overhangs so much that there would be nothing to hit*

Edited by eldiente

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props on the crumbling! i can picture that finger lock. skipping that gear is something you do on a headpoint, not an onsight, eh?

 

what's next? i think there is some gear up high on the humbling...at the no-hands rest....but the first 25-30 feet might be blank for gear...

 

 

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Just so I'm clear, we're talking about the place with a pot pipe drilled into the rock?

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