BigSky Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 I apologize if this has been hashed out here in the past; did a search and came up with nothing. I'm not new to ice climbing, and I am very aware of what's on the market. I've climbed in several different rigids and semi's, and vertical and horizontal points. I'm just interested in what you prefer for pure ice and why. Thanks, BigSky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Here is an email from Will Gadd yesterday: "Just use the Sabertooths--I've used them to climb m12, WI as hard as it gets, high altitude, logging, great all-purpose rigs as you note. And yep, if crampons get too light then they stop working..." Here are a few personal comments as well: http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/02/these-freakn-pons.html Lots of good 'pons out there. I even own a few of them. Best pure ice crampon currently available...horizontal front points. And one of the best models? Sabertooth. Now sit back and listen to the screams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 I'll step to Dane and disagree. I don't think horizontal dual points are the best way to go, especially on pure WI. Will's comment was that he used Sabretooths on an M12 - and I agree, on mixed/rock (especially face climbing), horizontal dual points may be the "go-to" crampon. But for pure water ice, I prefer vertical mono point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Two guys that both suggest horizontal fronts for pure ice in their writing and ice/tecghnique books..Twight and Gadd And at one time or another both employed by gear manufactures who sold monos. Gadd's comment was, "Just use the Sabertooths--I've used them to climb m12, WI as hard as it gets etc". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Chris Sharma climbed 5.13 in flip flops but it doesn't mean they are the best tool for the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitchaserCJB Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 True that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidk Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 I started climbing ice with Sabertooths, and they work great. Have used them in the alpine, and again they worked great. But if they were my only crampon, I'd have to replace them too often for my budget if I wanted to keep them sharp (mine aren't the stainless ones, if that matters). So I started looking for a pair of Cyborgs, and landed a pair of last years at a price that couldn't be beat. Now I can thrash the Cyborgs at the crags on mixed and ice, file the front points with impunity, and replace the four points when the time comes for only minor $$. And I still have my Sabertooths fresh and ready for mountain routes. Now, if only I had the cash to do the BD Neve-Sabertooth hybrid crampon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 I like monos for everything except crappy alpine ice, but can seem to loose them on that either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 I like monos for everything except crappy alpine ice, but can seem to loose them on that either Ya, but you could do it all in flip flops with wool soxs and hardly notice the strain...so why should we listed to you FYI Wayne's monos are circa 1995 or so (and I'm being gracious) last I looked and it doesn't seem to slow him down any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 I like monos on fat sticky ice - less effort. I still have an old pair of (cast iron?) sabertooths and use them in cold conditions when I have to really kick, on crappy ice where I need stability, and mixed terrain for stability (think edging) - unless the route is really slabby. So for all around, I'd agree with the sabers. they are easy to sharpen and you'd have to climb ice every day for years to wear down the points. The other thing I like about them is the aggressive 2ndary points and stability on neve and snice. On steep swiss cheesy picked out, but good ice, it's a toss up for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 oh dane, it's off topic, but I urge you to use the Bald Eagle mechanics glove (now available in waterproof). For fifteen bucks they are at least worth the pair of an $80 glove. I've been grabbing them instead of my other fancy gloves more and more recently. The non waterproof ones are more breathable (obviously). Size them smaller than lets say, the BD punisher or cloudveil ice flow. also, it looks like BD's flicklock mechanism has lost it's patent. My GF needed poles spur of the moment so I did the world a dis-service and went to Wally World. Anyway, I got a BD flicklock knock off pair for $12. I've been skiing with them all winter now to spare my $$ BD. Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Mike do you mean these? Looks good short of the lack of cuff. Funny about "all that kicking". No matter the ice I seldom have to kick with horizontals and have to kick every time on monos and dual vertical points. I find it way less effort and more secure to climb quietly on horizontal front points. All the 'pons available seem to work. I have almost 20 days on ice this year and have seldom used the same pair of 'pons two days in a row. So it is easy to identify favorites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevino Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Hmmm...the old well this pro person uses/says this, so therefore its the best. Then there is the counter, well just because it works for the pro doesn't mean it works for everyone, etc. While I have heard the the dual horizontal points are great and the end all, guess what? They didn't work for me. Why? Because I listened to Guy Lacelle when it comes to pure WI. PS...Did Will Gadd use sabretooths on his WI10? it would appear not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevino Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Enough spray...to actually answer your question: In regards to pure WI, I have used: contacts, sabretooths, dart, sarken and dartwin. My favorite: dartwin. I feel I get good placements with them (like my vertical ice picks on my tools) and having two of them I feel more balanced vs. my old dart monopoint. There is my opinion. I suggest making lots of friends and asking to borrow their gear when climbing simple single pitch climbs. Hell buy me a six pack of some real dark beer and you can try my dartwin and sarkens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainwreck Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Sabretooth Pro. QED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 I think the sarken are more of a alpine and alpine ice crampon. the points are too long for waterice. IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 guy lacelle soloed past me some years back wearing single point crampons. i hardlyh had any temptation to yank on his trailing line. darts i think he wore. will gadd uses sabretooths. both climb reel hard. i got the sabretooths and have no desire to change. they are versatel ans hit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Worth noting a couple of things about professional climbers. At one time or another Lacelle was sponsored by Petzl, Twight by Grivel and Gadd by BD. I own and use 'pons by all three companies and have no professional connection to any manufacturer and in comparison a gumbie's suggestions. Like many of us they have an entire quiver of 'pons sitting in the gear room. What they choose to climb on personally wasn't/isn't what they always recommended in print. Given a choice what I choose to climb on for crampons depends on the conditions and route choosen that day. I'm just interested in what you prefer for pure ice and why. On ice you can easily go from hard blue steel type stuff to vertical slush in a single day of climbing. Road side crags aren't a big deal, longer routes can be. Climb longer routes fast or climb faster than the changing conditions and it may not make a difference. On a order of preferenece and reliability ( for good feet) the first crampon on pure ice to let you down in changing conditions are monopoints. They have the least amount of surface area to support you and will not easily support you if the ice gets bad enough. Right behind them but with twice the surface area will be dual vertical front points. Think about that for a minute. Your entire body weight goes on a mono, then you literally double the surface support on dual verts to even more support on dual horizontals. It will obviously make a difference. The most surface area will always be horizonal front points and because of that, they will the most reliable in all conditions. The other issue I note is most but not all vertical front points require physical placement, just as a tool does, by a kick or two instead of that good swing with your tool. It also wastes energy. First kick needs to clean off the loose ice and the second or more to actually place them securely. The lack of surface area generally requires it. Curved horizontal front points will sink into the ice under body weight and because of the additional surface area don't require much in the way of support by the condition of the ice in comparison to the other two styles. Less kicking saves energy. The majority of time that is true but not always. If I have to kick a cold fragile feature that might collapse I want a razor sharp, single vertical front point. But cold hard ice that is collapsing as I kick that will eventually get to solid ice I'll want dual horizontals. A fully featured horizontal crampon generally has at least 8 vertical crampon points. (Dartwin for example) While a G12 has 10 and a BD Sabertooth has 12. Doesn't take a lot of imagination to realise which will be more stable on moderate ice while using French technique. Same technique and places I get rests on hard technical ice. The Dartwin (which I climb in a lot) feels like a pair of roller skates compared to the other two imo with the BD a fair step up on the Grivel in the same conditions. Why do I bother with the other 'pons? Simple. Overall weight mostly and even more important to me than performance at some point, the boot/'pon fit. Even with the big advantage of real rigids on pure ice, and it is a BIG advantage..I shy away from them now because of the same reason..weight. On perfect ice or hard rock while doing nothing but front pointing all you need is 3 points...Darts or the newest Grivel "sport" 'pon is proof of that. But for pure ice and only one choice of 'pon for steep technical things like these? I choose to use horizontals. My partners? Three different sets of monos, Grivel, BD and Petzl and I generally make them lead! Does it really make a difference? Only if what you have decided to climb on won't support you in the current conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Real men use duct tape and a church key Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmandoug Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 The clearest picture I can get from this thread is that skill seems to matter more than equipment choice, because the highly skilled climbers are climbing stuff on a pretty broad variety of gear. I guess I'll just try to get more skilled with the crampons that I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyro Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 +1 for sabertooth. They are my go to crampons. I'd go into more depth but after the book that Dane wrote above I don't know what more I could add. /0.02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Kidd Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 The clearest picture I can get from this thread is that skill seems to matter more than equipment choice, because the highly skilled climbers are climbing stuff on a pretty broad variety of gear. I guess I'll just try to get more skilled with the crampons that I have. This vid the EastCoastBastard linked a while ago I think proves your point. We could all afford to work on our footwork I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSky Posted March 2, 2010 Author Share Posted March 2, 2010 Thanks for all of the replies, I appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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