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[Roll Eyes]


I'm not a fan of the fee program and I never buy a pass but:


-The FS is not "making" any money with the fee program, the best they can do is break even with their past budgets and they'll probly never do that.


-Commercialization and Disneyland references are way over the top, they can't even get enough funding to keep trails maintained.


-They want to know what people want so that they can spend what little they have where it will make the most difference to the public. Unfortunately most suggestions come from car campers and people who want more development rather than from people on this site (speak up!).


-The FS is not a villianious bunch of goons (except for Larry) they're stuck with this program by the higher ups and are trying to deal with it just as we are. I even had a ranger tell me that I wouldn't need a pass because there would be no one patrolling the lots while I was in the backcountry.


The fee system is bad so keep protesting it (I will), but protest it for what it is, not for what will get the most attention.


Also, a newspaper will print most letters to the editor as long as they are not too long or crazy. Be sure to check your spelling and word choice well as the editors rarely do that, leaving your grammar to speak for you.

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If you plan on changing somebody's mind, remember the most effective technique, carrot and stick. Pain if you don't, pleasure if you do. Politicians have hard heads, and something that makes you wince doesn't even get their attention. You have to think like them.


They already have their hand deep in your pocket, and hoping a thief is going to feel pain from a petition is pretty naive. If they can get away with it, and they think they can or else they wouldn't already be stealing your money, they will try. You have to make the attempt cost them, and you have to provide them with something THEY want if they do things your way.


First place to start is to obtain the list of names, who voted for the original bill. Then you have to hurt them the only real way you can hurt a politician, by costing them a lot of votes, and therefore another free ride on the gravy train where they get to spend your money instead of working.


Once you have the names, you have to put those names on TV, associated with the idea that these people are stealing OUR forests and selling them to the highest bidder. Now you and I know that nobody pays attention to politics on TV, but here the idea of perception works for you instead of against you. Politicians think that mass media really does get them votes, use that faulty perception against them.


The options for recieving airtime fall into one of two broad categories. If you privately, want to get your message on TV you have to somehow make more entertaining news than everybody else who's up for consideration that day. As an individual that translates to either making some SERIOUS noise, like throngs of thousands throwing tomatoes against the honorable Senator from Bumfork's office while waving signs that say Senator (blank) is a TREE THIEF, short, simple, and inflammatory, or else you have to establish a one on one relationship with the people (editor's) who decide what gets airtime, and use their suggestions as to how to package your message effectively. The attacks have to be PERSONAL, using real names of congressmen and senators for those thickheaded "leaders" to get the point. As a side benefit, Congressman X watching Senator ZZ get the shaft for trying to sell the mountains might just get the point and save us the effort of having to go after him, specifically, as well.


Collectively, the groups who are supposed to be hearing your message, and who are taking your money to fight for your access, the AAC, Sierra, Access Fund, etc, need to be organized and presenting a common front on this issue. They need to be naming names and taking steps to create some real pain for the people who voted this abomination into tenative law. The opposite holds true too. The politicians who didn't vote for this need to understand, loud and long, that YOUR vote, and a WHOLE LOT of OTHER VOTES are riding on how they vote on THIS ONE ISSUE. The access groups aren't going to do this unless they hear from YOU. They need to know that they are competing for your access dollars and that you expect RESULTS, not just talk, or else you are taking your dollars to their competitor.


You aren't going to like hearing this, but I can just hear some pork barrel senator with jowls down to his nuts laughing his ass off about the idea that "voting" against his thievery (not buying a pass) is somehow going to convince him not to steal from you anymore. Petitions may be nice, and may well have some influence, but a single spot on the local 5 o'clock news will reach a quarter million ears...so who do you think Senator Billy Bleujobe is going to pay the most attention to?


If you're one of those who think $35 isn't enough to worry about, just remember that a serious player never hits the mark fat on the first dip. He'll snag a token on the first pass just to see if you're dumb enough to let him get away with it. If you are, (and once the "Demo" gets dropped from the legislation) you'll be thinking back to the good old days when $35 actually got you a day or so in the wilderness. It takes some serious scratch to buy a yacht, or learjet, or even to maintain and trailer a pair of wetbikes, but all you need (currently) to cruise world class mountains is balls.


If they can find a way to equate access to cash instead of brass, you're out, unless you can match the big boys. The powers that be are seriously OFFENDED that you aren't playing by the rules and letting them steal from you. While normal people spend their leisure time jumping into the SUX-3000 and heading down to the googleplex (fuel and tire excise taxes, license plate fees, mandatory insurance and the taxes they collect on that, sales tax on the gas, the tires, the truck, the movie, etc. etc. etc. etc.) you low-life free thinking radicals are cheating them out of their just due, getting away with the arch crime of enjoying yourself without paying them a dime. As a matter of fact, one of the prime reasons there are so many cattle trails through YOUR favorite stretch of wilderness is because it's FREE, or used to be, and all those people are just as tired of all the hidden taxes as you are. So not only are you costing the good Senator YOUR taxes, but a lot of his other taxes are withering on the vine as well and he's FEELING the squeeze.


You can take this issue head on, or you can play ostrich, but what's at stake here is the fundamental mechanism affecting how outdoor recreation is taxed in this country. If you don't believe this is one big scam, go ask the honorable senator just how much tax they have REFUNDED to the people who don't use the wilderness, and when he laughs in your face, you might just understand that it really doesn't have anything to do with fair use principles, it has to do with scum who think they can take your money, and the sheeple won't notice that they are ALSO paying for the exact same line items in the budget. let them win now, and within two decades, it'll cost just as much to backpack or climb for a week as it does to take a cruise.


Or more.


[ 09-04-2002, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: jeffers ]

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There was a case in Arizona that resulted in dismissal since the Forest Circus hadn't proven who the drivers of the vehicles were. For those planning on fighting the fee, one tactic that emerges from this case is to not let them observe that it was you recreating, by not letting them see you leave or return to your car.


Here is what I've been able to find on it. I've tried searching the archives of the website for the Arizona Daily Star, but the "archive" search doesn't seem to work for me. If it were to work for you, you could use these words to come up with a suitable search string


September 20, 2000: Opponents of Lemmon fee score a win in



In any case, this web link discusses the result



or this on which is as close as I seem to be able to find as a link to the article



I'm guessing here, but I would think that maybe if someone other than the owner of the car were to appear as the driver, that might help since typically they try to send tickets to the address of the registered owner. Just don't show any ID or verify who you are if you encounter the rangers in the parking lot.

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i dont think that the "it wasn't me" excuse would work because these thigns are delved out like parking tickets and they wrote a parking ticket to whoever the registration is recorded to...hopefully i am wrong but i think that we'll jsut have to keep righting the good fight the hard way...kicking the tools ass! [rockband]

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At the protest they had several weeks ago by the REI maybe 20 people showed up. If there had been more (100-200 or more would be nice) maybe we could have got some press coverage and look more like a force to be reckoned with [hell no] . Next time there's a protest, if you've got the time, show up and make some noise. You can chat live with some of your friends instead of over the internet. [big Drink]


I really have to wonder if the forest pass thing is working against those that distribute it. They are pricing people out of the wilderness.

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thanks for all the info posted here, im finding it quite helpful. as previously mentioned, i am the lucky recipient of a $50 ticket from parking in the teanaway... i had planned to ignore it. early this month i recieved a notice to appear in court in yakima at the end of the month, and was instructed to phone the spokane office intern, which i did this morning. i followed a similar tactic as was listed a few posts ahead of this one. i tried not to reveal much information and was pretty vague. he eventually said that if i did have a pass now, all i had to do was fax it and a copy of my notice to appear to him and he would dismiss it. i pointed out that there was no info on the NWFP indicating i was the proper owner of the pass, and he didnt seem to know what to do about that, and didnt really care. it sure seemed to me if you had any old (annual) pass laying around, all you had to do was fax it to him. further, his court office had not recieved any information yet suggesting they were going to meet me in court upon my scheduled hearing. apparetnly their office doesnt get the paperwork until 1.5 weeks ahead of the hearing.... (which we are quite near) additionally, I asked him a lot of questions on the phone and he did say there is no connection between this ticket and the DMV.


after much thinking about this, ive gone back and forth thinking about the merits and demerits of such a program. im still not sure where i stand on the issue. after my citation i did purchase an annual pass. i feel a little bit like i let myself get beat into submission, but in my case there are some real conflicts of interest both in school and work. i cant say i agree 100% with the program and do support the idea of protesting and writing congress, etc. for now, though, the most important thing for me was keeping myself out of hot water at work and school.

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