stevetimetravlr Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Ok Pope, lets see the photos from Midnight. Also, are you saying Pat Timson is a wuss for putting up a bolted route? Just curious.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 As far as imposing one's ethics on others it occured to me that Pope and Dwayner really aren't all that traditional. In a larger, historical perspective many of the manners in which they choose to climb would probably be considered unethical by previous generations. Chalk, harness, sticky rubber, even using ropes at one time were considered technilogical advances that gave climbers unfair advantages and were to be avoided. Â Pope claims that techniques such as bolting, hangdogging, and rehearsing have unfairly led to the capability to climb higher grades but couldn't the same be said about modern climbing shoes and cams (and surely a lot of other gear Pope and Dwayner have used, such as sweater vests, etc.)? Â Where one draws a line and claims further advances in the sport are unethical is effectively a completely arbitrary and subjective deliniation. Climbers are always going to be adopting new strategies, techniques, and tools in order to climb bigger steeper and harder things. Such is human nature. Â That being said, I think Pope and Dwayner make some legitimate points about over-bolting and unfettered bolting in the wilderness / mountains. But unfortunately any rational arguments get drowned out by their absolutism and will to impose their ethics and style upon others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_warfield Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Removing clothes to finish a climb is AID. OK, almost aid. Â The standard is Sharma on Just Do It at Smith. Doffing his jacket partway up 5.14c. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 With any public advocacy, credible proponents help, and clownish ones hurt. Â Nuff said there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 With any public advocacy, credible proponents help, and clownish ones hurt. Â Nuff said there. Â you sure hurt a lot of causes, Bozo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 With any public advocacy, credible proponents help, and clownish ones hurt.  Nuff said there.  you sure hurt a lot of causes, Bozo  While I expect the predictable skid mark from you, let's take a look at your beliefs since I first logged on. In the beginning, you were a raving Bush/neocon supporter, ghey averse as hell, corporation cock sucker, and global warming denier.  Now, you essentially believe what I do across the board, with minor differences. My beliefs, however, haven't really changed much during that same period.  Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Removing clothes to finish a climb is AID. OK, almost aid. Â I don't have to hang to get a good placement when I remove your mama's clothes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 i heard you were hanging from a dank fist jam.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 let's take a look at your beliefs since I first logged on. In the beginning, you were a raving Bush/neocon supporter, ghey averse as hell, corporation cock sucker, and global warming denier. Â you're way off, as usual. best go back to your meds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 let's take a look at your beliefs since I first logged on. In the beginning, you were a raving Bush/neocon supporter, ghey averse as hell, corporation cock sucker, and global warming denier.  you're way off, as usual. best go back to your meds  Far off? Really? Prove it. Where do our policy beliefs differ, IYHO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 That being said, I think Pope and Dwayner make some legitimate points about over-bolting and unfettered bolting in the wilderness / mountains. But unfortunately any rational arguments get drowned out by their absolutism and will to impose their ethics and style upon others. Â And how have our ethics and style opinions been IMPOSED upon you? Â What? They haven't? Have either of us stopped you from siege climbing at the crags (if that's what you're in to)? A bunch of you all seem 'fraid about ideas and such! Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 I'm afraid of Richard Simmons in short shorts!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 let's take a look at your beliefs since I first logged on. In the beginning, you were a raving Bush/neocon supporter, ghey averse as hell, corporation cock sucker, and global warming denier.  you're way off, as usual. best go back to your meds  Far off? Really? Prove it. Where do our policy beliefs differ, IYHO?  For one thing you are a self-described Democrat with a capital D. I don't identify with a party - parties are disgusting amalgamations of compromise and alliances driven by greed for money and power.  When given a choice between one piece of shit and another, we choose a different steaming pile. In your case you "support" your pile of shit. In my case I tolerate it. Hardly any "raving support" on my side, especially for specific political figures or a party as a whole.   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Where one draws a line and claims further advances in the sport are unethical is effectively a completely arbitrary and subjective deliniation. Climbers are always going to be adopting new strategies, techniques, and tools in order to climb bigger steeper and harder things. Such is human nature. New strategies, techniques, and tools are one thing, but in general all I usually ever ask for is at least a shred of 'take-off-the-blinders' honesty around there being nothing either arbitrary nor subjective about millions of bolts in stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 13, 2010 Author Share Posted January 13, 2010 let's take a look at your beliefs since I first logged on. In the beginning, you were a raving Bush/neocon supporter, ghey averse as hell, corporation cock sucker, and global warming denier.  you're way off, as usual. best go back to your meds   He is not way off. He pretty much nails it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 (edited) Where one draws a line and claims further advances in the sport are unethical is effectively a completely arbitrary and subjective deliniation. Climbers are always going to be adopting new strategies, techniques, and tools in order to climb bigger steeper and harder things. Such is human nature. New strategies, techniques, and tools are one thing, but in general all I usually ever ask for is at least a shred of 'take-off-the-blinders' honesty around there being nothing either arbitrary nor subjective about millions of bolts in stone. i think most people are completely honest about their efforts...i for one, have always expressed how long and hard i got beat down on a particular project before i managed it with no falls...shoot, alot of times, i couldn't even do all the moves... Â Likewise, its a well known fact that sharma will literally try one of his cutting edge projects over many many seasons... Â I don't think that's pope and dwayner's point...in fact, i don't much understand their point...they seem to not want people to do something that those people enjoy for some stupid reason... Edited January 13, 2010 by RuMR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Dwayner and Pope could/can get a big group consensus if they stick to a couple core issues   Don't Bolt Cracks Don't overbolt routes (bolt every 3 feet)  I don't see them doing that though.   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Where one draws a line and claims further advances in the sport are unethical is effectively a completely arbitrary and subjective deliniation. Climbers are always going to be adopting new strategies, techniques, and tools in order to climb bigger steeper and harder things. Such is human nature. New strategies, techniques, and tools are one thing, but in general all I usually ever ask for is at least a shred of 'take-off-the-blinders' honesty around there being nothing either arbitrary nor subjective about millions of bolts in stone. i think most people are completely honest about their efforts...i for one, have always expressed how long and hard i got beat down on a particular project before i managed it with no falls...shoot, alot of times, i couldn't even do all the moves... Â Likewise, its a well known fact that sharma will literally try one of his cutting edge projects over many many seasons... Â I don't think that's pope and dwayner's point...in fact, i don't much understand their point...they seem to not want people to do something that those people enjoy for some stupid reason... The point about honesty is about the 'advancement' of climbing didn't come at no cost, it involved the installation of millions of bolts which attracted hundreds of thousands of people to the sport out of which a very small pool of folks 'advanced' the sport. Â It's definitely a non-issue if you have no problem with the proliferation of bolts and climbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Added to list Dwayner and Pope could/can get a big group consensus if they stick to a couple core issues Don't Bolt Cracks Don't overbolt routes (bolt every 3 feet) Don't violate established local ethics. (Gunks) and as in don't rap bolt or use power drills in areas that are traditionally ground up and/or hand drill. (Toulome/Yosemite) I don't see them doing that though. I doubt that folks will be commonly running off to the hills and larger mountains carrying 20 lbs of heavy power drilling crap at all anytime soon. Carrying all that stuff works well only when you are relatively close to your car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Good point. But what about Infinite Bliss or that lame route Windham put down on S Early? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 I don't know everything there is to know about Timson, but his climb on Givler's Dome is a superb example of restrained bolting and ground-up climbing. I recall having a far more favorable opinion of chasing bolts when there were just a few routes like that to be found in Leavenworth. Regarding Midnight Rock photos, I have a few that I thought were pretty nice, scanned from Ektachrome slides. Pretty sure they're on my work computer so give me a day or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Where one draws a line and claims further advances in the sport are unethical is effectively a completely arbitrary and subjective deliniation. Climbers are always going to be adopting new strategies, techniques, and tools in order to climb bigger steeper and harder things. Such is human nature. New strategies, techniques, and tools are one thing, but in general all I usually ever ask for is at least a shred of 'take-off-the-blinders' honesty around there being nothing either arbitrary nor subjective about millions of bolts in stone. i think most people are completely honest about their efforts...i for one, have always expressed how long and hard i got beat down on a particular project before i managed it with no falls...shoot, alot of times, i couldn't even do all the moves... Â Likewise, its a well known fact that sharma will literally try one of his cutting edge projects over many many seasons... Â I don't think that's pope and dwayner's point...in fact, i don't much understand their point...they seem to not want people to do something that those people enjoy for some stupid reason... The point about honesty is about the 'advancement' of climbing didn't come at no cost, it involved the installation of millions of bolts which attracted hundreds of thousands of people to the sport out of which a very small pool of folks 'advanced' the sport. Â It's definitely a non-issue if you have no problem with the proliferation of bolts and climbers. I generally like people and feel that more will actually improve access...ie. climbers will likely BUY index out right to protect access... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 ...and i think "millions" is a gross exxageration... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 ...and i think "millions" is a gross exxageration... Â Two or three more bolts and I think Frenchman's Coulee will sink into the Columbia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 hyperbole is a wonderful thing...good riddance to a shitty crag anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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