Useless Summit Poster

[treknclime]

Some really good points here on both sides of the fence.

 

Bug’s idea seems to be a reasonable compromise, and that way if folks want to learn exactly who the person is, they can make that effort.

 

There were certainly some mistakes made in vetting this guy. One ought to take ownership of that, and understand we’re all human and we all make mistakes. Longer and harder trips also seem to magnify things, and as one gets out on more trips like you went on, conflicts like you experienced really seem to fall to the wayside much easier.

 

I think calling people out is just bad business, unless there are extreme circumstances. Not to put down your experience, but they are not out of the ordinary. Shite happens, and people let us down all the time. If you feel compelled to call this guy out, take ownership of the process by publishing something under your own name on your own blog, or publish your experience in a book or in an article.

 

That being said, there is a lot of merit to letting the whole experience slip away, and shift one’s focus to the future, and to the next trip. IMHO, focusing on the garbage in our past only holds back forward progress. There is also a collective cost to us all when someone gets trashed in public. Entertaining, yes, but none of it is really positive or productive.

 

My 2 cents…hope you’re able to take a deep breath…and let this go. It’s really not worth the effort.

[billcoe]

I once had a disaster of a Mountain climb with a guy (lets call him Bernie cause that was his first name and I forgot his last name) who thought that Reinhold Messner could learn some things from him. I found the arrogance and unbridled lack up hubris he carried very very disturbing...the whole mentality. I never saw any of this on the ground. I did discuss it at length with him afterwards and also warned anyone and everyone who could be a potential partner of this time bomb: and yet he refused to take my verbal check under consideration at all. So I dug in deeper and started really drilling the dude, thinking he really really needed a reality check.

 

I don't know the details of what later occurred other than what I read in the paper, but I suspect that still believing himself to be a truly great climber, he soon thereafter went up and got his brother killed on the North Face. Bernie barely survived the fall, but he did live if you can believe the newspaper (which you usually can't).

 

I never did get a "you were right Bill" card, nor ever hear anything ever again from the jackass. However, to his credit, as I never bumped into him and I was out a lot back then, I believe that he did stop climbing, thus sparing the next victim. Sad to say that he did lose his brother though. It shouldn't have happened, but I carry no guilt after surviving my climb with him (it could have gone either way).

_______________________________________________________________

 

that's all I know.

[AlpineK]

I've connected with a few people over CC or via another internet site. I've never had a problem, and I've done a couple multiday trips with them.

 

I always follow the rule. No matter how you meet somebody and talk about a long/hard climbing trip always go on a day trip first. Big trips are great, but I want to climb often. Hopefully your potential partner has the same attitude. It's easy to say something like lets go out to the crag/peak for the day and see how well we do climbing together at the end we can talk more about the big trip or either one of us can bail. Maybe a weekend trip is another thought.

 

If you do that you can bail if your nervous and you're only out a couple days and a few bucks for expenses. Long trips far away require you to dedicate both time and money.

 

 

[rocky_joe]

I read you're story a while ago, but decided to wait and see what other people were thinking. My original instinct was to out the bastard, but after reading a few, more level headed opinions, I am of the opinion that you ought to confront Blanco before you publicly out him. Send him a letter, sit down over a beer, whatever. Let him know that shenanigans like that won't fly, especially if he holds aspirations to complete the 7. I'd only publicly (here, mountain proj, SP, etc.) if he blows you off entirely once you've confronted him. Give him a chance to see his actions from another person's view. If he realizes he was in the wrong and seems like he's keen to correct his mistakes, great! Otherwise it might be in order to send a little message via TR about this guy. Nothing to harsh, just a little heads up for anyone considering having him on their next expedition.

[sobo]

Narcissism is what is at play here. I have intimate experience with this disorder. We all tend to marry what we are familiar with. So my life story is now out of the bag (until recent years).

I was told that "you cannot expect a narcissist to change". The inability to see oneself, warts and all is the hallmark of narcissism. "I want therefore you must" is all there is. All else is merely an obstacle to be manipulated or brow-beaten into submission.

 

Thinking that a "heart to heart" or some other form of reason will have any effect on a narcissist is a gross missunderstanding of the situation. The best hope is to present your goals in terms of the narcissist's benefit package. The second most effective means of getting your needs adressed is to write it on a two-by-four and smacking the narcissist in the face with it. In reality, you will not get any closer to getting your general needs met no matter what you do. It is not about you stupid. But the two-by-four method will leave you with a sense of satisfation not often acheived in dealings with the narcissist.

 

Please don't tell my ex-wife I posted about her.

Bug

Jeebus Christ, Keith, your story seems so familiar to mine. My five-time loozer, soon-to-be ex-wife, never mentioned that she had also been married to you once, too.

[Off_White]

Naturally, we all want the inside dope, the real nitty gritty, to know every salacious detail of this blind date gone awry. A public outing might also result in a very entertaining interweb pissing match, and we all like a good show. It's already a fine cautionary tale that justifies all the sage "try before you buy" advice regarding internet climbing partners.

 

I'd advise doing a little frank self assessment to decide how much you just want to give this yahoo a public poke in the eye as payback, and how much is really about public safety.

[Pete_H]

I vote for the payback.

[montypiton]

After reading responses from some cooler heads, I think I posted "precipitously". I would amend my response to feeling compelled to have that "heart-to-heart" with Blanco, and, depending on how you feel about the results of that encounter, then either "out" him,or not, as you feel moved. I would also hope that subsequent expeditions would ask for "references", in which case you might be able to make your case in private with the prospective partners.

 

For background, we had a woman on our Aconcagua expedition in 1990 who had come with references from Jim Whitaker - we had verified that she had been "invited" on an Everest trip. Before we left, I did a Thanksgiving ascent of the walk-up South Side route on Mt. Hood. Of course at Thanksgiving, the Couloir above the Hogsback was melted back to black ice. On that trip, I discovered she had never worn crampons! Later, at Plaza de Mulas, (14000'), I also discovered that she had never heard of the "rest step" which most backpackers learn before they ever start climbing mountains. The point is, even with references and 'pre-trips' you can still get burned. Now, whenever I climb with a new partner, I simply revert to "guide" mode until the new person demonstrates he/she doesn't require that service.

Edited December 30, 2009 by montypiton

[crackers]

1) personal responsibility. I woulda dropped the dude in camp. You chose to act like a guide for him. You made that choice whether you realized it then or not.

 

To be perfectly honest, I've been dragged downhill whimpering like a fat wanker by friends, and toproped upwards by new friends whining like a scared, incompetent spraylord caught out. I've also been on the other end of the rope, dragging good friends up stuff.

 

In all of those cases, the responsible party made and stated the conscious decision to do it. I'd say that your lesson is to be absolutely clear. Don't shy away from 'the mountain talk'...it's part of climbing.

 

2) Directly outing him on the internet probably isn't going to help much. Instead, a great trip report where you tell a fable of a crappy partner, bad choices and then make a good conclusion with a teaching moral at the end of the story would probably do better. If you write the TR well, and post it on an 'gateway' site like summitpost, it will get read for years. Many people will learn and maybe even take the lessons to heart.

 

I think that spraying all over the Internet that Real Name is a disaster waiting to happen will have two results. A) There will be a limited number of regulars on the Internet who will never climb with that person. For the next six months. B) It will make you feel a little bit better, but it will not help you develop.

 

A story to illustrate points 1 and 2:

 

Just before I got into climbing, I knew a guy who was totally into whatever he was doing. I watched him one night as he totally focused on figuring out the best letter combination for his then phone number (542 DOOR). As somebody with ADD, I couldn't do that and still can't. It was amazing to watch.

 

We were in Missoula, Montana. I was in college, and this guy was a grad student in the human performance department. He was super fit. He doesn't remember this example of his focus, but I've got two witnesses. One day, I offered him a ride to the airport. He declined politely, stating that he was going to run the 7 miles to the airport so he could get some exercise in. We went to breakfast, and then, on the road to the airport, we saw him running down the road with his frigging suitcase. Running with a damned suitcase.

 

Anyway, this guy decided that climbing was really cool. He got out from the basement room that he lived in next to the furnace for less than $200 a month, and he went climbing. And climbing. And with his focus and his fitness, he compressed years of experience into one season.

 

Even as a non climber in that small town, I knew that Yllek's new name was Sketchy Yllek. It was alleged that he'd taken 1, 2, 3, 15 ground falls leading on ice. People thought he'd done some miracle boxing training cause he didn't die even though he hit the deck at least a million times. All sorts of crazy stories popped up, and I'm quite sure that some of them were actually true. But a lot of the stories were out and out slander. I don't know if or how the community ever benefited from all the Sketchy Yllek stories. I never learned a damn thing from them, other than that some people tell better stories than other people.

 

But Yllek managed to fill up his bag of experience before emptying his bag of luck. Yllek is now a Hard Man. He climbs hard, he climbs innovative, and he climbs a lot more than anybody who posts on this site.

 

Now, I'm not saying that Blano is going to be a climber like Yllek. Instead, I've got to ask what calling out Yllek as a Sketchy Yllek actually did for anybody. People still climbed with him. I know for a fact that it didn't enter into his hard head to care about what people were saying about him. Several times, Yllek did get the sit down 'mountain talk' as described by Bill Coe above, and I gather that did slowly help him learn.

 

As we so often say on the internet, it is my humble opinion that the world would be better served by a good story that provides global lessons than a bit of payback shitslinging that I really doubt would have much effect.

 

Of course, shitslinging sure can be fun sometimes...whatever you decide to do, enjoy it! And provide links!

[goatboy]

If your goal is to anger and upset or embarrass the guy (revenge), go ahead and out him in public.

 

If your goal is to warn the populace and make future partners safe from him....a simple internet flameout isn't going to really meet that goal.

 

If your goal is to actually help him, then talk to him directly. Getting him to recognize and change his behavior is the best way to meet goals 2 and 3.

 

Good luck. And it might be useful for you to comment what you take away from these comments and what your plan is -- and what you might do differently in the future?

[Bug]

Please don't tell my ex-wife I posted about her.

Bug

Jeebus Christ, Keith, your story seems so familiar to mine. My five-time loozer, soon-to-be ex-wife, never mentioned that she had also been married to you once, too.

 

Sorry.

I was just so busy running I didn't consider the potential danger to others on this board.

 

[rocketparrotlet]

I would suggest emailing him this thread and telling him to read it. Seeing a negative thread posted about yourself would be a sobering experience, but not a flameout that would publicly embarrass him.

 

-Mark

[JoeR]

WTF were YOU thinking continuing on?

 

...and summit post is a waste of time...so much bad beta mostly from people who don't get out much but really enjoy talking about being out...

Last I heard SP does provide some interesting trolling opportunities.

 

 

Sounds like this guy MIGHT have been qualified to be base camp bitch... of course you would have had to teach him the basics of camping outside.

 

and lastly, no beer? The most damning act yet!

 

 

 

 

[billcoe]

Sounds like this guy MIGHT have been qualified to be base camp bitch... of course you would have had to teach him the basics of camping outside.

 

Only if you like cold food at altitude, dude explains above that fool couldn't fire a stove up. It's not the ability not NOT fire the stove, it's the lack of humility of just asking "hey dudes, can you show my how to work a Whisperlite, I can't even spell MSR" or some such.

Of course, doing an accurate and honest trip report on summitpost, (linking the story for us of course) and using his summitpost name in the tale might be enough as well. If anyone likes him and has knowledge, they will recognize that they need to share it with him and mentor the guy.

 

Just be honest.

 

By the way, what is you name over on Summitpost, I didn't see Whoiswillhockett over there.

[Pilchuck71]

Just an observation here but you can see how well the mentoring thing worked out (or didn't) for Josh Lewis when he was outed on this site by someone from SP.

 

[spotly]

I agree with Atriedes. Once you saw how much attention the guy required, shoulda booted him. Pretty sorry when a person can't be taught to turn a knob and push an ignitor button in three weeks

[Bug]

5 Behaviors of Manipulative People

 

by Brett Blumenthal - Sheer Balance, on Wed Dec 2, 2009 9:40am PST

Many of us like to think the best of people. We like to think that they shoot straight and are forthright in their intentions. We also like to believe that they will ask for what they want and not resort to crazy tactics to get it. Unfortunately, however, there are times when we come across those who will do whatever it takes to get what they want…including manipulation. Being manipulated never feels good, but the worst part of manipulation is that often, we don’t even realize that it is happening. Here are a few ways to know if someone is trying to manipulate you:

1. Buttering You Up: To get their way, manipulators will often make you feel good so that they can then ask you to do something that they want. The person may first compliment you or tell you what a wonderful job you did on something. Making you feel good will, in their mind, make it difficult for you to say no…after all, you wouldn’t want to disappoint them or give them reason to think you didn’t deserve the compliment in the first place. What you can do: Return the compliments and the niceties before saying no.

2. Guilt: This doesn’t only pertain to Catholics and Jewish Mothers; guilt trips have been a successful manipulation tactic for centuries. The saddest part of this strategy is that the victims of this tactic succumb to the manipulators’ demands because they feel they HAVE to, not because they WANT to. In personal relationships, this sets up a co-dependency that is extremely unhealthy. What you can do: Ask the individual if they want you to do something because you have to or because you want to. If they say they want you to want to do it, tell them that you don’t and that they are trying to force you into something you don’t feel comfortable with.

3. Broken Record: Probably the most obvious of formats is the broken record tactic. If a person asks you enough or pushes their agenda enough…constantly repeating the question or request over and over again…in slightly different ways, the victim will inevitably give in and give them what they want. Oye! What you can do: Ask the individual what they don’t understand about the word “no.” Tell them that asking you over and over again isn’t going to change anything and that they are inappropriately over-stepping boundaries.

4. Selective Memory: This one gets me the most. You swear you have a conversation about a plan and everyone is on the same page, and then one day, the manipulator pretends to remember the conversation completely differently, if at all. What you can do: Record your conversations…seriously! Okay, maybe not. At least have a witness that you can count on to back you up if the person pulls this shenanigan. Call them out on the fact that they conveniently change the game to fit their needs.

5. Bullying: If a person doesn’t get their way, they make you out to look or feel like the bad guy…like you are the wrong one. What you can do: Be firm and tell them that their bullying tactics are inappropriate and unacceptable.

Keep your eyes open for these behaviors and continue to stand your ground to ensure that you aren’t a victim of manipulation. Have you seen any other types of manipulative behavior?

 

[G-spotter]

Thanks for guiding me up Aconcagua. Sucker!

[Lafayette]

Thanks for the advice, it´s good to read what the wiser and cooler heads have to say.

 

Blanco is a nice guy. He had a good attitude, just not the skills. The best characterization of his abilities is that he´s a good client for a guided trip. (BUT DIDN´T TIP!)

 

It´d be much easier if I found him to be an asshole. I would be more apt to solve my problem with my fists than my tongue.

 

I´ll be posting a TR in the next few days.

[Bug]

Thanks for the advice, it´s good to read what the wiser and cooler heads have to say.

 

Blanco is a nice guy. He had a good attitude, just not the skills. The best characterization of his abilities is that he´s a good client for a guided trip. (BUT DIDN´T TIP!)

 

It´d be much easier if I found him to be an asshole. I would be more apt to solve my problem with my fists than my tongue.

 

I´ll be posting a TR in the next few days.

1. Buttering You Up: To get their way, manipulators will often make you feel good so that they can then ask you to do something that they want. The person may first compliment you or tell you what a wonderful job you did on something. Making you feel good will, in their mind, make it difficult for you to say no…after all, you wouldn’t want to disappoint them or give them reason to think you didn’t deserve the compliment in the first place. What you can do: Return the compliments and the niceties before saying no.

[Lafayette]

eh, had the big boy conversation with a guy five years my senior. Laid out the facts he conceded some. Disputed others. I´m definitely no saint on this climb. Gave him a second chance to pick up lunch. Would have helped after carrying his boots down from Plaza Argentina for him.

 

Either way, Paul Elwell at paulelwell.net

[rocky_joe]

that website is a crack up!

 

New Life goal...get super sweet climbing website to be used as an alternative spray outlet!

[Plaidman]

eh, had the big boy conversation with a guy five years my senior. Laid out the facts he conceded some. Disputed others. I´m definitely no saint on this climb. Gave him a second chance to pick up lunch. Would have helped after carrying his boots down from Plaza Argentina for him.

 

Either way, Paul Elwell at paulelwell.net

 

Thanks dude for the info.

I learned a lot reading this thread.

I've been lucky in the past with my pick up partners.

Thanks for posting the name.

 

Plaidman

 

[Braydon]

Hahaha enjoy Mendoza while you're still there buddy...they'll be plenty of time for this stuff when you get home.

[billcoe]

From his web site, it appears he is use to doing guided climbs: previously on Denali (RMI) and in the Pickets, a day toproping an icefall in Michigan as part of a class....I guess I understand a bit better now. Wow, ambitious guy, wants to crank off the 7 summits....

 

...maybe "do you have a web site" will be a question we need to start asking new partners:-) My friend Dave has one, he doesn't get out much anymore as he's been bike racing. http://www.englishengineering.com/dave/adventures/adventures.html It would be a good way to evaluate a parner, you see they did a trip to the Cirque of the Unclimbables with a few buddies, should give you an idea.....