Jump to content
  • Announcements

    • olyclimber

      WELCOME TO THE CASCADECLIMBERS.COM FORUMS   02/03/18

      We have upgraded to new forum software as of late last year, and it makes everything here so much better!  It is now much easier to do pretty much anything, including write Trip Reports, sell gear, schedule climbing related events, and more. There is a new reputation system that allows for positive contributors to be recognized,  it is possible to tag content with identifiers, drag and drop in images, and it is much easier to embed multimedia content from Youtube, Vimeo, and more.  In all, the site is much more user friendly, bug free, and feature rich!   Whether you're a new user or a grizzled cascadeclimbers.com veteran, we think you'll love the new forums. Enjoy!
Sign in to follow this  
MtnHigh

More Jabs at PMR by the Oregonian

Recommended Posts

This cartoon was done in poor taste. It may have some intrinsic value, but due to its timing, comes across poorly. The target audience (the public) won't get it and only makes PMR look bad.

 

Here is a logistical problem with requiring beacons: if they are mandated by the government, then the government should be required to execute the SAR missions with paid staff. Neither the State of Oregon, Clackamas Country, the US Forest Service, etc. have the means to deploy teams of paid rescue professionals. It is highly unlikely they ever will.

 

Mt. Hood and state-wide SAR missions are executed by volunteers. Volunteers don't have the time or energy to respond to false or un-needed callouts. Period. (Google Yuppie 911 if you have any doubts). When the technology evolves so beacons can communicate two ways, the game may change.

 

Do we expect urban 911 calls to be handled by Neighborhood Watch? No. It would be unfair and unreasonable to expect hard working volunteers from PMR (or any other SAR organization) to be responsible for handling calls from a government mandated system. A system that would provide a false sense of security to those who are under-trained and inexperienced.

 

SAR organizations are dedicated to saving lives and helping families. They are not against PLBs, just want them used responsibly. Old Ben summed it up nicely: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Seems all the energy and money these toolbags are trying to put in to mandating beacons could save many more lives being spent on starving children, or the homeless, or any number of things more important than worrying about us climbers. I mean why help those that could use it when you can force "help" on those who don't want it? :P

 

Well said

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This cartoon was done in poor taste. It may have some intrinsic value, but due to its timing, comes across poorly. The target audience (the public) won't get it and only makes PMR look bad.
YES, exactly, and if i was on PMR i would not want much to do with it if my efforts were taken in such a manner... I'd be thinking, "screw you - find someone else to do this. if you don't appreciate my volunteer work than maybe you should do it yourself"

 

 

Mt. Hood and state-wide SAR missions are executed by volunteers. Volunteers don't have the time or energy to respond to false or un-needed callouts. Period.

Precisely the reason we should not be taking cheap shots at those who give their time to help...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Seems all the energy and money these toolbags are trying to put in to mandating beacons could save many more lives being spent on starving children, or the homeless, or any number of things more important than worrying about us climbers. I mean why help those that could use it when you can force "help" on those who don't want it? :P

 

Well said

 

I second this motion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I still don't understand how a PLB would rescue someone who is dead? If you are alive, then you can save yourself. You could easily crawl off that hill. If you are dead....well then you're dead.

 

 

This same question has been running through my head ever since the MLU discussion first came up.

 

It seems like PLB / MLU's are great if your lost and need someone to find you, but I have yet to here of a climbing rescue where "lost" is the problem. It's usually, rockfall, icefall, crevasses fall, avalanche, or a significant climber fall all of which involved a major trauma. That coupled with the fact that climbing rescues take many hours after the rescue is initated at best, and days if the weather isn't cooperative, and anything that would be life threatening in the front country is likely fatal.

 

For climbers, it seems like MLU's / PLB's are more like a body recovery tool :( and I'm reluctant to require people to carry gear for that purpose.

 

For sailors and boaters where PLB's are required, it's a different story again. I expect that what they are protecting against is a motor going dead or a mast breaking leaving the boat dead in the water, and your effectively "lost" and just need somebody to come get you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I still don't understand how a PLB would rescue someone who is dead? If you are alive, then you can save yourself. You could easily crawl off that hill. If you are dead....well then you're dead.

 

 

This same question has been running through my head ever since the MLU discussion first came up.

 

It seems like PLB / MLU's are great if your lost and need someone to find you, but I have yet to here of a climbing rescue where "lost" is the problem. It's usually, rockfall, icefall, crevasses fall, avalanche, or a significant climber fall all of which involved a major trauma. That coupled with the fact that climbing rescues take many hours after the rescue is initated at best, and days if the weather isn't cooperative, and anything that would be life threatening in the front country is likely fatal.

 

For climbers, it seems like MLU's / PLB's are more like a body recovery tool :( and I'm reluctant to require people to carry gear for that purpose.

 

For sailors and boaters where PLB's are required, it's a different story again. I expect that what they are protecting against is a motor going dead or a mast breaking leaving the boat dead in the water, and your effectively "lost" and just need somebody to come get you.

 

huh... i likes :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I still don't understand how a PLB would rescue someone who is dead? If you are alive, then you can save yourself. You could easily crawl off that hill. If you are dead....well then you're dead.

 

 

This same question has been running through my head ever since the MLU discussion first came up.

 

It seems like PLB / MLU's are great if your lost and need someone to find you, but I have yet to here of a climbing rescue where "lost" is the problem. It's usually, rockfall, icefall, crevasses fall, avalanche, or a significant climber fall all of which involved a major trauma. That coupled with the fact that climbing rescues take many hours after the rescue is initated at best, and days if the weather isn't cooperative, and anything that would be life threatening in the front country is likely fatal.

 

 

There were several rescues that happened this summer that were reported on this website. One in particular was initiated by a cell phone call from the top of a nearby peak - if I recall the details. However, I also recall them considering it lucky that they were able to make the call to initiate the rescue. I assume in these cases a PLB would have been useful - but I'd be curious to hear from those involved what they think about carrying a PLB.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd never argue against a cell phone or a PLB being useful. (

I typically climb with at least one cell phone in the party, even in remote area's).

 

But does having one change the final outcome of the accident for the victim / rescue-ee?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe in the case I'm referring to - yes, the injured person was saved as a direct result of timely initiating the rescue. I recall it being major injuries and the person simply could not have "crawl[ed] off that hill".

 

I'll look for the link, but it got a very detailed write up on CC.com.

 

http://sites.google.com/site/stephabegg/home/tripreports/washington/northcascades/pickets/southernpickets2#fullstory

 

I'm certainly not advocating PLB's be required....just that they can be useful. I don't carry one.

 

Edited by pdk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To remain clear: I am opposed to any law requiring the use of a locator beacons!

 

The USFS, the Sheriff Dept and Portland Mountain Rescue would do well to elevate this discussion and center it more on other known ways to improve the safety of climbers while protecting our public resources. One immediate thought would be a better, more thorough and USEFUL climber registration system. The current USFS system is a joke and virtually useless. At best it satisfies some USFS bean-counters' needs, but it certainly doesn't engage the climber in any sort of useful exchange of information about safety, resource protection, etc. If the USFS intends to manage a world class mountain (and I think Mt. Hood is world class mountain) it needs to step up to the plate and glean what it can from other major climbing areas.

 

I 'personally' appreciate the Lassiez faire attitude of the USFS - but many people (i.e. tax payers who aren't familiar with the the complexities of rescue policy and law and the nuances of climbing) wonder why Mt Hood has such a disproportionate number of high profile incidents when compared to Mount Shasta, Mount Rainier or Mount Baker. I get the libertarian shtick about government involvement, but after watching a military helicopter roll down that mountain and a bi-annual parade of dramatically sad rescues, the public wants to see something change! Having some rescue leader with slick gear and cool patches tell us why locator beacons don’t work isn't the sort of change anyone was hoping to see.

 

As for the cartoon and Portland Mountain Rescue - the cartoon isn't making fun of their actual rescue efforts. It is aiming, however, at the rescuers apparent inability to thoroughly address and admit the value of locator beacons - an argument that pervades on this website. I think climbers are coming off as rabidly opposed to any sort of regulation or critique.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The USFS, the Sheriff Dept and Portland Mountain Rescue would do well to elevate this discussion...

 

Having some rescue leader with slick gear and cool patches tell us why locator beacons don’t work isn't the sort of change anyone was hoping to see.

 

...the rescuers apparent inability to thoroughly address and admit the value of locator beacons - an argument that pervades on this website. I think climbers are coming off as rabidly opposed to any sort of regulation or critique.

 

Way to elevate the discussion.

 

 

So explain to me again what business joe dip-shit has telling me what I need to carry with me up a choss pile so he can feel better about how easy it is for rescuers (with their "slick gear and cool patches") to find my body?

 

According to the latest info I saw, climbers account for something like only 3% of all rescues in the state of Oregon. What about the other 97%? What are we doing to save them from themselves?

 

I can't figure out what it is you are getting at. You don't think beacons should be mandatory but you do think that we as climbers should engage in asinine discussions with people who's only information in regards to mountaineering is what they see on TV and read from the Oregonian. NO... I don't want to waste my time talking with these morons. It's not my job to educate these idiots and yes I am "rabidly opposed to any sort of regulation or critique" as long as it is coming from someone who doesn't climb. I am happy to discuss this issue with fellow climbers which is what I thought I was doing on this web site.

 

I respect the opinions of the other climbers on this thread that disagree with me and of course we can all agree to disagree. But don't make the mistake in thinking that just because you see the value in it that others will and should feel the same. I don't like electronic gizmo's of ANY kind in the wilderness. I can't tell you the number of times I've been hiking with someone who spent the entire trip fiddle fucking around with their goddamn GPS while telling me that my compass/ map was wrong. What do these people do when their batteries die? Follow me and my ancient technology back to the truck. Maybe if they had an MLU, ELB, Spot, Fastfind or whatever, they could simply activate it and the helicopter would arrive to whisk them away to the safety of the nearest starbucks.

 

No thanks, I'll stick with my own skill set, a map/compass and a PBR.

 

That's it, I'm done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The USFS, the Sheriff Dept and Portland Mountain Rescue would do well to elevate this discussion...

 

Having some rescue leader with slick gear and cool patches tell us why locator beacons don’t work isn't the sort of change anyone was hoping to see.

 

...the rescuers apparent inability to thoroughly address and admit the value of locator beacons - an argument that pervades on this website. I think climbers are coming off as rabidly opposed to any sort of regulation or critique.

 

Way to elevate the discussion.

 

 

So explain to me again what business joe dip-shit has telling me what I need to carry with me up a choss pile so he can feel better about how easy it is for rescuers (with their "slick gear and cool patches") to find my body?

 

According to the latest info I saw, climbers account for something like only 3% of all rescues in the state of Oregon. What about the other 97%? What are we doing to save them from themselves?

 

I can't figure out what it is you are getting at. You don't think beacons should be mandatory but you do think that we as climbers should engage in asinine discussions with people who's only information in regards to mountaineering is what they see on TV and read from the Oregonian. NO... I don't want to waste my time talking with these morons. It's not my job to educate these idiots and yes I am "rabidly opposed to any sort of regulation or critique" as long as it is coming from someone who doesn't climb. I am happy to discuss this issue with fellow climbers which is what I thought I was doing on this web site.

 

I respect the opinions of the other climbers on this thread that disagree with me and of course we can all agree to disagree. But don't make the mistake in thinking that just because you see the value in it that others will and should feel the same. I don't like electronic gizmo's of ANY kind in the wilderness. I can't tell you the number of times I've been hiking with someone who spent the entire trip fiddle fucking around with their goddamn GPS while telling me that my compass/ map was wrong. What do these people do when their batteries die? Follow me and my ancient technology back to the truck. Maybe if they had an MLU, ELB, Spot, Fastfind or whatever, they could simply activate it and the helicopter would arrive to whisk them away to the safety of the nearest starbucks.

 

No thanks, I'll stick with my own skill set, a map/compass and a PBR.

 

That's it, I'm done.

:lmao: Nice! :tup:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The USFS, the Sheriff Dept and Portland Mountain Rescue would do well to elevate this discussion..

 

Well done, thank you Hans.

 

My first response to the recent accident, as a long time climber with some SAR experience, was something needed to be done on Hood.

 

A little research into just the available technolgy clearly shows mandated beacons are not the answer. The reason is the technology to have them actually work reliably, in a climbing environment, even a small percentage of the time, is not there. Yet...

 

The last rescue I was involved in the 1st responders had to hike out and then drive to the entrance of Icicle canyon just to get cell service. Location of the accident? Base of Lower Castle rock. Imagine the extended response time to just that small and simple effort? Victim needed to be carried out. Crawling was an option and might well have been possible but would have also made the injuries much worse. Imagine again just how well cell phones work in the rest of the Cascades as a reliable method of communication in an emergency.

 

PMRs public response to mandated beacons is so weak imo as to not be believable. If that is all they are capable of I can easily lay some of this issue at their feet. They should be leading the discussion imo not stumbling over their own feet.

 

I've carried a Sat phone once in dozens of remote trips out of the CON. US. Cell phones are a novelty not part of my rescue plan. What I have learned from the discussion is I would carry a reliable locator/communication device on most any trip if one were easily available and economically feasible.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first response to the recent accident, as a long time climber with some SAR experience, was something needed to be done on Hood.

 

Please elaborate on this further. Why do you think that something needs to be done? I don't understand what the problem is that everyone is trying to solve. I can't understand why you, a long time serious climber by the sounds of it, with massive amounts of experience and probably more real firsthand mountain knowledge than most of the "wankers" on this board, (including me)would feel that the general public needs to get involved in regulating in ANY WAY the circus that we know as Mt. Hood?

 

People aren't perishing up there on a daily basis. It looks to me that PMR does a pretty damn good job of getting those down that can be brought down. They know the mountain better than anyone. Why would we kick them out of the discussion because we disagree with their opinion? If the people that are going to be putting their ass on the line to drag us "wankers" back to Timberline are in opposition to this kind of thinking than I guess rather than running my mouth because I think I know better I might just step back for a second and analyze my own opinion. Not that PMR is infallible but I sure as hell know that I wouldn't want to work SAR on that "shit pile".

 

I'm left shaking my head at the fact that someone who's been climbing as long as you have would advocate for more regulations to a sport that demands self sufficiency over nearly everything else. The more we push our limits the closer we get to a line that we cannot cross. I think the people involved in the most recent incident were skilled, prepared and capable of climbing the route. Things went bad and now we're left to armchair quarterback from the comfort of our computers. Most likely an MLU, cell/Sat phone, and all the regulations in the world wouldn't have brought them down the mountain alive. This is the game we play. It sucks bad when we lose. Unless your advocating outlawing the game then imposing regulations on how we choose to play it will only act as a handicap on Hood.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since you asked. Where else do we loose bodies on a fairly regular basis in such a small geographical area? Not deaths mind you, but body recovery failures. For me that is the tip of the iceberg. I ask myself what else are we missing here?

 

I did not say PMR should be eliminated from the discussion.

I do wish they would offer more on the subject than their written statement again mandatory beacons. Sorry if anyone is offended that I disagreed with PMR but I just can't figure out how they came to the conclusions they came to in their official statement. My experience tells me it simply does not make sense.

 

Being against mandated beacons I don't have a problem with.

Telling me a beacon or just better communication in the mountains isn't a good thing I find sadly, ignorant.

 

Also I don't think the general public needs to be involved. But we as climbers do need to be involved and vocal. Involved enough to tell the real story why beacons won't work right now. And smart enough to lobby for beacons with the technology that will work. As a group we need to make using "good" beacons just as acceptable as using a helmet or a rope.

 

I love Hood no matter how we describe it. I also have climbed it in some pretty bad weather. But I fail to understand the dynamics of at least two of the recent SAR efforts. I wasn't there so I won't second guess it but I sure don't understand the results. Easiest thing to point a finger at is the inability of SAR to work within the weather windows available. It is an obviously time sensative issue. Better communication would help that issue.

 

My personal experience on Hood tells me that a RELIABLE beacon/communication device specifically made for mtn use could have made a difference in both incidents on Hood I am thinking of, either in saving lives or for finding bodies if the time frames on response could be shortened by better communication.

 

But that is only my GUESS by the information afforded me sitting at my desk.

 

To be specific, Luke didn't die quickly. The coroner reported Luke died of hypothermia. Just as a good friend of mine did after a fall on Dragontail. And I had a fair idea of just how much he was capable of surviving first hand. Hypothermia is not a quick death. Luke was reported by the Sheriff's Office to have moved yards by his tracks before he died. My friend was able to move..not far mind you..but he was able to move. Coroner speculated he died at least 48 hrs before being found.

 

In both cases a timely rescue might well have saved either man and with some luck, those that were with them.

 

My first exposure to a death while climbing was in The Valley. A climber fell and broke his fibia (not compound but painful enough) decending the east ledges on El Cap. Willing his partner to start a "rescue" since he couldn't walk or hobble down the Ledges his partner took off. Hours later on his partner's return the climber was dead. He died of shock from a fairly minor injury, a small broken bone in his leg. A timely response would have more than likely saved his life. Imagine his partner's reaction to the death after stopping to buy beer and dinner to take back up so they could celebrate their ascent of the Nose.

 

I think the people involved in the most recent incident were skilled, prepared and capable of climbing the route.

 

Many times the victims are all those things. But then if you become a victim something was obviously missing from that equation, at that moment, on that day.

 

Common sense and experience (in the mountains) tells me to hedge my bet if I want to continue to play this game. The "right" beacon sounds like a good idea to me. I won't begrudge you your choice.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Since you asked. Where else do we loose bodies on a fairly regular basis in such a small geographical area?

 

I think it's pretty much all been said - this time and last time, and no doubt it will be in the future.

 

But, if I die on a mountain, I'd prefer to be left there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NO... I don't want to waste my time talking with these morons. It's not my job to educate these idiots and yes I am "rabidly opposed to any sort of regulation or critique" as long as it is coming from someone who doesn't climb. I am happy to discuss this issue with fellow climbers which is what I thought I was doing on this web site.

 

Preaching to choir aint going to help in the long run. If you want to make a difference try and educate these morons. There is getting to be more morons and these morons are the ones calling for mandates. So sorry, it is your job and well as everyone else's.

 

 

I don't like electronic gizmo's of ANY kind in the wilderness. I can't tell you the number of times I've been hiking with someone who spent the entire trip fiddle fucking around with their goddamn GPS while telling me that my compass/ map was wrong. What do these people do when their batteries die? Follow me and my ancient technology back to the truck. Maybe if they had an MLU, ELB, Spot, Fastfind or whatever, they could simply activate it and the helicopter would arrive to whisk them away to the safety of the nearest starbucks.

 

No thanks, I'll stick with my own skill set, a map/compass and a PBR.

 

I look at it this way. I can use all of those analog and digital gizmos if needed. They are all tools and each have their place and limitations. None should be substitute for one or the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The great thing about a map and compass is that it is just like a GPS without the batteries...too bad not everyone who vetures into the outdoors realize how to read Range and Township lines...that there's a brass marker at (almost) every intersection atleast in the lower 48. All those "Green Trails" trail maps should have these lines on them...or you can just get the larger maps...If you have these skills then you always know where you are...if you can get a moderately clear view to triangulate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Since you asked. Where else do we loose bodies on a fairly regular basis in such a small geographical area? Not deaths mind you, but body recovery failures. For me that is the tip of the iceberg. I ask myself what else are we missing here?

 

I did not say PMR should be eliminated from the discussion.

I do wish they would offer more on the subject than their written statement again mandatory beacons. Sorry if anyone is offended that I disagreed with PMR but I just can't figure out how they came to the conclusions they came to in their official statement. My experience tells me it simply does not make sense.

 

Being against mandated beacons I don't have a problem with.

Telling me a beacon or just better communication in the mountains isn't a good thing I find sadly, ignorant.

 

Also I don't think the general public needs to be involved. But we as climbers do need to be involved and vocal. Involved enough to tell the real story why beacons won't work right now. And smart enough to lobby for beacons with the technology that will work. As a group we need to make using "good" beacons just as acceptable as using a helmet or a rope.

 

I love Hood no matter how we describe it. I also have climbed it in some pretty bad weather. But I fail to understand the dynamics of at least two of the recent SAR efforts. I wasn't there so I won't second guess it but I sure don't understand the results. Easiest thing to point a finger at is the inability of SAR to work within the weather windows available. It is an obviously time sensative issue. Better communication would help that issue.

 

My personal experience on Hood tells me that a RELIABLE beacon/communication device specifically made for mtn use could have made a difference in both incidents on Hood I am thinking of, either in saving lives or for finding bodies if the time frames on response could be shortened by better communication.

 

But that is only my GUESS by the information afforded me sitting at my desk.

 

To be specific, Luke didn't die quickly. The coroner reported Luke died of hypothermia. Just as a good friend of mine did after a fall on Dragontail. And I had a fair idea of just how much he was capable of surviving first hand. Hypothermia is not a quick death. Luke was reported by the Sheriff's Office to have moved yards by his tracks before he died. My friend was able to move..not far mind you..but he was able to move. Coroner speculated he died at least 48 hrs before being found.

 

In both cases a timely rescue might well have saved either man and with some luck, those that were with them.

 

My first exposure to a death while climbing was in The Valley. A climber fell and broke his fibia (not compound but painful enough) decending the east ledges on El Cap. Willing his partner to start a "rescue" since he couldn't walk or hobble down the Ledges his partner took off. Hours later on his partner's return the climber was dead. He died of shock from a fairly minor injury, a small broken bone in his leg. A timely response would have more than likely saved his life. Imagine his partner's reaction to the death after stopping to buy beer and dinner to take back up so they could celebrate their ascent of the Nose.

 

I think the people involved in the most recent incident were skilled, prepared and capable of climbing the route.

 

Many times the victims are all those things. But then if you become a victim something was obviously missing from that equation, at that moment, on that day.

 

Common sense and experience (in the mountains) tells me to hedge my bet if I want to continue to play this game. The "right" beacon sounds like a good idea to me. I won't begrudge you your choice.

 

there's a lot of sense in what you write, here, dane, and while i do not share your opinion on a few things i respect your right to have them. Also, i am glad that you are sounding off like this because someone has to say it, and while i sometimes think i know the answers (as they would be good for myself) i cannot help but be humbled by good anecdotal advice. experience speaks volumes, and you've definitely been there. good words, my friend... thanks! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's pretty much all been said - this time and last time, and no doubt it will be in the future.

But, if I die on a mountain, I'd prefer to be left there.

 

to this, i have no more to add. :tup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see how 'body recovery' is salient to the MLU mandate discussion. I'm not aware of any public money being spent to search for bodies once the initial search has been 'suspended' (at least missing bodies of climbers). It might sound macabre, but if I'm dead, I'm done with my body and if it remains on a mountain I'll have no argument.

 

Personally, I don't want to use a locator. I don't want to carry one, buy one, or deal with yet more red tape by being forced to rent one. Nor do I want any sort of expansion of the in-person registration systems used at Mts. Rainier and St. Helens. I already carry a cell phone and often a GPS and avy transceiver and those things take enough away from the experience. Requiring heavy equipment in an activity where speed often increases safety and weight always decreases speed is a mistake.

 

Yes, we expect some form of rescue effort if we have incidents in the mountains. Just like tourists expect a rescue if they drive off a narrow mountain road. Fire, police, and paramedic services are provided free (funded by taxes) for the public, even when the public makes a mistake...in a car, a boat, an airplane, skiing, snowmobiling, paragliding and yes, climbing. And just like those things, medical services are for-pay. I have several friends who've had climbing incidents turn into medical bill approaching $100,000.

 

The incidents in our sport tend to be sensationalized and therefore act as a lightning rod for the criticisms of the La-Z-Boy nation. We're not going to change that because they don't understand our behavior, just like we don't understand theirs. Also, we tend to be poorly organized and so we don't do a good job on lobbying and PR like the snowmobilers do, so our public image just flaps around in the wind.

 

But to the folks here advocating for mandatory equipment, I am telling you this is a very, very slippery slope that, if implemented, will not end with MLUs. Before long it will include shelter, sleeping bags, stoves, ropes, etc, even for one-day ascents. We'll be required to adhere to someone's idea of 'safest', and I cringe at what that will do to climbing.

 

Lastly, there is simply no way to mandate or legislate safe behavior into climbing. Trying to do so just creates a significant burden without tangible benefit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I already carry a cell phone and often a GPS and avy transceiver and those things take enough away from the experience. Requiring heavy equipment in an activity where speed often increases safety and weight always decreases speed is a mistake.

 

cascadeclimber, I agree with almost your entire post, except for this part. I take such things along with me and have noticed no detrimental experience on account of having them. What good parts of your experience are you giving away to the inanimate objects you carry in your pack or pocket? Those things take nothing, only what you give them. Does the high tech textile engineering of scholler detract from having just a wool jacket? What about the materials science and engineering going into ice tools or ski construction--surely those things don't detract from the experience of having all wood and steel equipment.

In addition, the newest McMurdo PLB is 5 or 6oz. I realise weight can be an issue, but at 6oz I can swing it, personally. And there is no reason that the weight won't go lower over time. At what point would a 2oz PLB be too heavy? I suppose there will always be someone.

 

btw thanks for your website--have enjoyed a lot

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't see how 'body recovery' is salient to the MLU mandate discussion. I'm not aware of any public money being spent to search for bodies once the initial search has been 'suspended' (at least missing bodies of climbers). It might sound macabre, but if I'm dead, I'm done with my body and if it remains on a mountain I'll have no argument.

 

Personally, I don't want to use a locator. I don't want to carry one, buy one, or deal with yet more red tape by being forced to rent one. Nor do I want any sort of expansion of the in-person registration systems used at Mts. Rainier and St. Helens. I already carry a cell phone and often a GPS and avy transceiver and those things take enough away from the experience. Requiring heavy equipment in an activity where speed often increases safety and weight always decreases speed is a mistake.

 

Yes, we expect some form of rescue effort if we have incidents in the mountains. Just like tourists expect a rescue if they drive off a narrow mountain road. Fire, police, and paramedic services are provided free (funded by taxes) for the public, even when the public makes a mistake...in a car, a boat, an airplane, skiing, snowmobiling, paragliding and yes, climbing. And just like those things, medical services are for-pay. I have several friends who've had climbing incidents turn into medical bill approaching $100,000.

 

The incidents in our sport tend to be sensationalized and therefore act as a lightning rod for the criticisms of the La-Z-Boy nation. We're not going to change that because they don't understand our behavior, just like we don't understand theirs. Also, we tend to be poorly organized and so we don't do a good job on lobbying and PR like the snowmobilers do, so our public image just flaps around in the wind.

 

But to the folks here advocating for mandatory equipment, I am telling you this is a very, very slippery slope that, if implemented, will not end with MLUs. Before long it will include shelter, sleeping bags, stoves, ropes, etc, even for one-day ascents. We'll be required to adhere to someone's idea of 'safest', and I cringe at what that will do to climbing.

 

Lastly, there is simply no way to mandate or legislate safe behavior into climbing. Trying to do so just creates a significant burden without tangible benefit.

 

If you remember last year when a few backcountry snowboarders went missing they called the search off after a while but the county that the incedent happened in was alread making plans and asking outher countys to search for the bodies once the snow milteded... I was already singed up but they the bodies were found by some hikers or something.

Edited by RokIzGud

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

×