AlpineMonkey Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I currently work through an organization and do outdoor and some indoor climbing programs. This is all on the side from my "real" job. I am fully insured through where I work and if there was an accident they would take the hit. As long as I am acting in my job description and not intentionally injuring someone I am covered legally. For example, if I am teaching a student how to rock climb and they get hurt I am covered because I am hired as a “climbing specialist.” But If I were teaching a student how to swim and they drowned, I wouldn’t be because I'm not hired as a swim insturctor. But it got me thinking, as I would like to perhaps branch out to other organizations in the future. (I don't ever want to be a guide, but I like doing "programs" and introductory courses with kids.) What do private guides or other climbers who work in the industry do to protect themselves legally? I would not want to loose my house and everything I've worked hard for from a legal matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafe1234 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) You need a liscense and an insurance policy. I looked into it once and it on the basis of being able to write off climbing purchases on my taxes. Turns out the policies you need to be legit are quite expensive, in the neighborhood of $5,000 or more annually...which is what my insurance agent told me would be likely. And I have no idea what size of bond you would need, probably huge, of which %5 or so is due up front. Though I would imagine, there is probably an organization offering membership underneath an umbrella policy that would cover a single guide looking to be in business for themself....there are such things for other businesses with expensive insurance policies required. Edited October 20, 2009 by Rafe1234 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summerprophet Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Insurance for a climbing guides is riduculously expensive. So much so that for a single small operation it is not a viable option. Reduced rates may be available through the AMGA, but again certification through them is a serious endevor both in time in finances. Most small operations (like mine) invest in a good lawyer to draft up a bombproof waiver and release of liability, rather than invest in insurance rates. Take heed though that a waiver is only good if you are considered to be equivalent to a working professional guide in both expereince and judgement. One false call and you are held fully liable. My advice? Get a good waiver...... and take your name off the house mortgage. Toss me an email if you want a copy of my waiver. Justin Turnbull Central Washington Climbing Guides cwcguides@gmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnieK Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Most small operations (like mine) invest in a good lawyer to draft up a bombproof waiver and release of liability, rather than invest in insurance rates. Take heed though that a waiver is only good if you are considered to be equivalent to a working professional guide in both expereince and judgement. One false call and you are held fully liable. My advice? Get a good waiver...... and take your name off the house mortgage. As a lawyer who does a lot of insurance-related litigation, I'd disagree with that to some extent - there is no such thing as a "bombproof" waiver. First, if something happens, a waiver, no matter how iron-clad it appears, will not keep you from getting sued. Without insurance, you are going to have a foot the bill for an attorney. As everyone knows, it ain't cheap. Second, in most states (and I don't know where you live, and I'm not commenting on your particular state's law), a waiver cannot release a person for liability for their own negligence. Your own negligence is basically if you screw up - something caused by your own fault. For example, if you didn't tie a knot right and someone got hurt. What that means is even if you have what appears to be an iron-clad waiver, preventing the client from suing you for any reason whatsoever (using the same example, because you didn't tie his knot right) - that waiver would be considered void to the extent it released you from liability for your own negligence and the person could still sue you for fucking up. On the other hand, a good waiver could prevent you from being liable for judgment call type things, related to weather, rockfall, etc. However, again, it will not prevent you from getting sued anyways - that's the reality of personal injury litigation. Now, I wouldn't necessarily let that stop you from doing this. There are ways to protect yourself even without insurance - like summerprophet said - take the assets out of your name. If there are no assets, even sleeze-ball lawyers might think twice about taking the case. If you do go for it, the most important thing to remember, especially if you don't get insurance - don't fuck up.... (disclaimer - this is not intended to constitute legal advice. Please consult an attorney licensed in your state if you want legitimate legal advice...blah blah blah) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_Martin Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 To get authorized permitting from any land agency in the United States or Canada, you will need liability insurance. Most places require a policy of either 500k or 1 million dollars per occurrence. If you work for a school, and you take any money at all for taking people out, land managers consider you to be a guide and you have to have a permit. If you get caught guiding without a permit or if you have an accident on public land without a permit, things are going to get very very nasty. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good2Go Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 IMO the real deterrent to litigation in a written waiver is the indemnification provision (i.e., the provision in the waiver requiring the client to indemnify the guide for any claims, including negligence, related to their services). Courts can elect to negate such provisions for various reasons (e.g., gross negligence, public policy, etc.), but in practice they generally won't (at least in WA). If properly drafted, the indemnity provision will require the client to pay the guide's costs of defending any lawsuit related to the guide's services from the outset (including the cost of determining whether the indemnity provision is enforceable), which makes the case far less attractive to the ambulance chasers. Your post implied that waivers don't work to prevent claims, which isn't the case in WA (at least claims alleging negligence where the waiver includes an adequate indemnity provision). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnieK Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 As I said - it all depends on the law of the state you're dealing with. I'm not going to give legal advice over a website, and I'm not licensed in WA anyways. However, lots of states will void an indemnification provision when it requires you (client) to indemnify me (guide) for my (guide) own negligence. Which makes perfect sense, IMO. If you (client) get hurt due to my (guide) mistake/negligence, you (client) have to pay for my (guide) defense costs, etc. if I (guide) get sued? That is illogical to me and simply adds insult to injury. However, some states will let you contract away every right you have, regardless of how ill-informed or uneducated you may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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