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Raindawg

Sport vs Trad

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Pope, you're correct - the younger climbers don't question bolting. Just like you don't question kernmantle ropes, crampons, nuts, etc...; because you grew up with them. Crampons were considered cheating at one time, by some. An old climber in England told me that when nuts were first used there some complained they were cheating, 'cause it took far less time and effort to place a nut than hammer a piton.

 

Which one of them leaves a permanent trace?

 

We are still having the bolt discssion beacuse some people are reactionaries and can't accept change. Some people cannot accept that others are not exactly like they are.

 

Change does not automatically equate with "good".

 

 

Yes, I can buy into the argument that bolts can be unsightly; however a foot path to a pristine crag leaves far more of a trace than a bolt that is barely visable to a climber on a route that sits a stones throw from a major road. I find tat in the alpine to be more unsightly than a few barely visable bolts. If you are truely concerned about "leave no trace", stop driving you air conditioned Subie to the crag.

 

Without trails or roads of some sort, one would be confined to one's dwelling. They are necessary, but they can be minimal. With their popular appeal, bolted routes actually have the affect of increasing traffic and trails. By the way, pope doesn't drive a Subaru...and air-conditioning has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

 

Two decades from now there will be those decrying yet unknown methods and advocating we go back to drilling bolts rather than gluing composite 'biners to the rock with solor powered tools.

 

I VERY seriously doubt it...very seriously.

 

Oh BTW, are rock shoes considered "dubious" or should we all be climbing in old mountaineering boots.

 

Only if they leave a trace!

 

The only constant is change, get used to it.

 

You need to get wise and be able to discern between "good" change and "bad" change.

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is this for real? if the great majority of climbers are okay with it, then it's okay. the fact that you feel it is an "imposition" on your experience is your deal, no one else's. your feelings are your responsibility. that's the way it works in the world. the rest of us aren't responsible for making your experience better. if the rest of the climbing community is okay with bolted routes then the fact that you consider it an "imposition" is something you need to come to terms with on your own.

 

 

Post of the day.

 

 

It's got Kevbone's endorsement!!! It must be correct!

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[ Rap bolting leaves a metalic trail of trash, creating an imposition on my experience.

 

is this for real? if the great majority of climbers are okay with it, then it's okay. the fact that you feel it is an "imposition" on your experience is your deal, no one else's. your feelings are your responsibility. that's the way it works in the world. the rest of us aren't responsible for making your experience better. if the rest of the climbing community is okay with bolted routes then the fact that you consider it an "imposition" is something you need to come to terms with on your own.

 

What we're talking about here is a shared natural resource. Key word here is "natural". Implicit in the idea of a shared natural resource is that generations of users will best enjoy, appreciate and respect the medium if and only if it is enjoyed in its natural state. Modifications to the natural state should be limited, carefully considered and implemented only when necessary for a broad range of users to gain access.

 

Now take (what has become) a shit-hole like Vantage. Trails of bolts have been drilled on 50-foot pillars, on virtually every edge, face and corner. Ample climbing enjoyment can be derived via top-roping these routes, providing a thrill, a risk and an adventure similar to (or perhaps better than) clipping the bolts. The bolts aren't necessary. They are permanent modifications which do create an imposition to users who find them obnoxious (as do the crowds of color-coordinated sport climbers who are so fond of clipping bolts). And it doesn't matter that you and 45 of your best friends think the bolts are wonderful, you have wrecked what once was a unique natural resource. Which is a shame when one considers that the experience you desire can be found in a climbing gym or on the pinnacle next to the coffee shop at REI.

 

 

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....henry barber never used leg loops and thought camming devices were cheating. should the rest of us be expected to give up leg loops and cams because hot henry finds our use of them an imposition on his experience?

 

Henry Barber's ideals seem strange or even amusing to you. But tell me, when Henry coiled his rope and went home, what did he leave behind at the cliff that imposed those beliefs on you? That's right, nothing. You're free to decide whether cams and leg loops are aid or legitimate. But that's my point. So....can you say the same for Alan Watts?

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You're right Pope. Henry Barber did nothing for me, except the first free lead of Bombshelter on Grand Central Tower for which I admired him for. He did leave rap slings there, and make use of fixed gear but other then that he did not contribute to NW climbing much. Alan Watts on the other hand left a legacy of great climbs and tradition, in a area that I can assure you was little used before hand. In high school, we used to drive down to Smith from Seattle area and sleep in the parking lot in our car. We would be there the whole weekend, and rarely see another person, let alone another climber. Now the area is enjoyed by thousands of climbers and spectators, and its only crybabies like yourself that selfishly bemoan "why can't I climb here without seeing bolts" that are the odd man out. Same with Vantage. You are whining about bolts at Vantage at Frenchmans? Are you serious? Who the hell can see them but climbers who go out there purposely to climb? Enviromental destruction by the partiers that go the concerts and wreak havoc at Frenchmans should be your concern, not people out climbing where no one ever goes and the bolts they use. Your arguements are selfish and lame. You didn't address my post earlier about using the Cascade Alpine Guides to go to the thousands of climbs in the Northwest that have no bolts. Instead, you choose the most popular sport climbing areas and decry how sad it is you can't climb there and not see bolts. Weak dude. Very.

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... create an imposition to users who find them obnoxious (as do the crowds of color-coordinated sport climbers who are so fond of clipping bolts).

 

 

this bozo not only wants to turn back the clock, he wants to institute a dress code as well.

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Hey Alan - I found that newsclip about Ben - Congratulations! If he hasn't tried ice-climbing, and is interested, tell him to look up Tyler Farrar and ask Ty what it was like to learn with the "Old Farts"... and check your pm's...

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YO POPE

Speaking of natural resource and impact could you stop tearing up the outdoors with that mountain bike! GET IT! Share the road, share the outdoors, share the trail, the key word here is share …just be willing to share and pope could you please just STFU

 

Hard to believe there are still a bunch of crotchety old phuks out there that don’t climb any more whining on the internet about bolts

 

Yo Alan thanks sooo much for all you have done for climbing and thanks for the new guide, most don't realize how much goes into a guide especially for Smith were the routes are still going up as you are putting together the guide

 

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Alan Watts on the other hand left a legacy of great climbs and tradition, in a area that I can assure you was little used before hand. In high school, we used to drive down to Smith from Seattle area and sleep in the parking lot in our car. We would be there the whole weekend, and rarely see another person, let alone another climber. Now the area is enjoyed by thousands of climbers and spectators, and its only crybabies like yourself that selfishly bemoan "why can't I climb here without seeing bolts" that are the odd man out.

 

Alan Watts initiated a tsunami of destruction, although he probably had no idea what he was bringing on. I, too, climbed at Smith in the late '70's and found it tranquil and adventurous. Do you really think that the crowds that have since infested the area, allured by bolted climbs, is an improvement?????

 

Same with Vantage. You are whining about bolts at Vantage at Frenchmans? Are you serious? Who the hell can see them but climbers who go out there purposely to climb? Enviromental destruction by the partiers that go the concerts and wreak havoc at Frenchmans should be your concern, not people out climbing where no one ever goes and the bolts they use.

 

Much of the crap left by thoughtless concert-goers can be readily cleaned up. Self-absorbed sport-climbers, however, have left a PERMANENT mess of their own. Ever go out their before it was sport-bolted? It was a beautiful place. Now it makes me want to PUKE! Here's a sample from your beloved Vantage:

Vantage_attrocity_1_.jpg

 

Your arguements are selfish and lame. You didn't address my post earlier about using the Cascade Alpine Guides to go to the thousands of climbs in the Northwest that have no bolts. Instead, you choose the most popular sport climbing areas and decry how sad it is you can't climb there and not see bolts. Weak dude. Very.

 

No, dude. You have no vision. The slowest backpacker has better ethics than the hardest sport-climber.

Avoid leaving a trace. Get it?? Bolts should be the exception, not the rule. Sport-climbing is defined by them.

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Good thing you circled all the bolts in red so we could actually SEE THEM...

 

It ain't all about "seeing them"....it's about leaving your mark, or not. It's about minimal impact. There are very few bolted climbs at Vantage that couldn't be top-roped to avoid the mess.

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watts talks and raindawg goes bark, bark, bark...

 

And what did you just offer with the comment above???

Answer: A WHOLE LOT OF NOTHING.

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watts talks and raindawg goes bark, bark, bark...
More like yap, yap, yap.

 

Can't address the issues? Attack the messenger.

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watts talks and raindawg goes bark, bark, bark...
More like yap, yap, yap.

 

Can't address the issues? Attack the messenger.

This issue has been beat to a pulp more than once here. Pretty sure most of the climbers find your all or nothing position about bolts pretty amusing. So do I get the damn Care Bear, or not?

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Oh boy, I just might get me a Care Bear for Christmas, please Santa, please.

 

No, dude...you get a scare-bear...for being one of the most disappointing posters on cc.com. Enjoy the award.

Scare_Bear_by_pinkertonFX.jpg

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dude u can't be a Man unless yer always On Point - Manning the Perimeter - Setting the Boundaries - Defending the North Forty

Fuckin' bolts? WTF are u sayin'? LOL

 

...anyone want to see a pic of my car stuck in the snow today?

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dude u can't be a Man unless yer always On Point - Manning the Perimeter - Setting the Boundaries - Defending the North Forty

Fuckin' bolts? WTF are u sayin'? LOL

 

...anyone want to see a pic of my car stuck in the snow today?

Only if hot neked women are pushing it out.

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